The problem with fighting drow

[Edena_of_Neith]

I have a strong image of what would happen in a typical encounter with drow.

A stereotypical image, if you will, but one that has hung around for 20 years.
I thought I might share it with the ENBoard.

All of this is given in 2nd edition terms, for those are the terms I am most familiar with.
I am sure something like this would happen in 3rd edition.

Assume you have a party of adventurers.
They are on a mission in the Underdark, walking down a 20 foot wide tunnel with broken, jagged walls and a ceiling 20 feet high - also broken and jagged.
There are, in this party of adventurers, one thief, two clerics, a mage, a monk, and two fighters. All of them are 12th level.

Up the passage, in front of the advancing party, are five drow girls.
All of them are 5th level fighter/cleric/mages (making them 7th level characters in 2nd edition, not 15th level characters ala 3rd edition.)
As drow go, these are run of the mill, not particularly high in level, and carrying only typical drow equipment for their level and rank.

The advancing party cannot see the drow, for the drow have Piwalfis that defeat normal sight and even infravision (darkvision.) Furthermore, the drow can Hide In Shadows as a racial trait.
The advancing party cannot hear the drow, for the drow wear their own version of Boots of Elvenkind, and are absolutely silent when they move (even in their metallic armor and with metal weapons.)

The party is carrying torches, which makes them easy for the drow to see.
Or perhaps the party walking in the dark, using infravision. The drow have infravision (to 120 feet, farther than the party's) so the drow see the party.
Or perhaps the party threw invisibility on themselves. The drow magic resistance defeated that, and the drow see the party.

The drow heard the party coming for the last 20 minutes.
Even if the party was magically silenced, the drow heard them, for the drow magic resistance (spell resistance) of 75% defeated the Silence spells cast by the party clerics.

The party mage could have Stoneskinned the party.
However, the mage does not know exactly when to throw the Stoneskin spells (or other spells of this sort), for the party has a long journey and opponents could be anywhere along the way.
And perhaps the party mage saved the Stoneskins for himself (and, thus, has one up currently.) Mages do do such things.
The point being, the party does not have Stoneskin spells up currently.

The party thief is on point, but she cannot see or hear the drow.
Her detect magic was foiled by the drow's Hide in Shadows abilities (the drow expect this kind of scanning.)
Her detect poison and find traps locate nothing.
Her detect life is foiled by the Hide in Shadows as was her detect magic.
Her clairaudience might have worked, but a throw of the dice for the entire drow group (for magic resistance) failed her.

True Seeing would have spotted the drow, but True Seeing has a very limited duration, and neither of the party clerics has it up.

Out of a darkness inpenetrable to the thief comes 10 bolts, fired from 5 hand crossbows by hands that move with lightning speed.
The thief goes down, succumbing to the sleep poison in the bolts.

In 2nd edition, initiative would now be rolled.
The extremely fast drow gain initiative, and they attack again.
Expecting a volley of Continual Light stones and blasts from spells, not to mention charging fighters, the drow move fast to counteract all of these.
A fireball detonates behind the party. It's flames move up and down the tunnel, enveloping the entire party but not the drow. This causes damage and wrecks any spellcasting on the party's part.
A web spell is placed between the drow and the party, to block any charges.
4 more poisoned bolts are fired from two of the drow, this time at one of the clerics, downing him.
The drow - knowing their darkness spells won't stop a flood of Continual Light stones - simply retreat down the tunnel out of the target area (and yes, the drow can cast spells and fire missiles, as they retreat.)

One of the fighters has a Ring of Free Action and passes through the Web.
The drow anticipated this possibility, and one of them now fires her Wand of Viscid Globs.
The fighter is ensnared in the Glob, and halted.

Note that the drow are trying to take the party alive.
Otherwise, these five female drow would have fired three Fireballs and two Frostballs on their surprise attack, then fired three more Fireballs and two more Frostballs from readied scrolls.

The drow see that one of the fighters, one of the clerics, and the thief, are down.
This leaves the monk, one fighter, one cleric, and the mage to be dealt with.

The mage and one of the clerics were spellcasting, but their spells were ruined by the Fireball.
The other cleric threw a number of Continual Light stones, now illuminating brightly an area of the tunnel between the drow and the party (including the downed thief, the web, and the entrapped fighter in it.)
The last fighter and the monk stopped their charges due to the Web blocking the way.

The drow and the party throw initiative, and the drow win again.
The drow know they cannot douse all the Continual Light stones, nor can they see through the light to make out the party.
They know the party cannot see them.
They also know the mage and the clerics may fire spells blindly, hoping to hit them in the concealing darkness.
They fire first.

They fire three Fireballs and two Frostballs, placing the center of the explosions far behind the visible Web.
The blasts hit all of the party except the fighter ensnared on the drow side of the Web and the thief, unconscious on the floor on the drow side of the Web.
The unconscious cleric is caught in all five blasts and killed. The mage, with few hit points, is also killed. The monk is able to dodge enough of the explosions that she survives. The standing fighter, unable to get through the Web or free her companion caught in it, easily survives the blasts.
The standing cleric survives the blasts, but his spellcasting is ruined.

One of the drow girls calls out in Common for the party to surrender.
The standing cleric, fighter, and monk tell the drow where to go.

Initiative is rolled, and the drow win again.
The drow are very good at pinpointing enemies by sound, and the standing party members foolishly opened their mouths.
One of the drow Dispels the Web.
Then 4 Viscid Globs are fired at the 3 standing party members (the standing fighter, the monk, and the standing cleric.)

The cleric is caught and held in the Globs. The monk and standing fighter charge.

Normally a charge would bring the monk and the fighter into combat.
Indeed, they reach the drow.
Then, unable to see or hear the drow, they run right past them (even though they can guess where they would be, approximately.)
For they had to run through the bright light of the area of the Continual Light stone, and then into the darkness beyond, where the drow were.

The drow oblige this, then strike from the rear with poisoned swords and knives in both hands, attacking 10 times, 5 attacks on each person.
These attacks hit (the drow weapons are heavily enchanted), and the sleep poison takes effect.

The monk and the fighter go down, fast asleep.

At this point, a Flame Strike erupts, cast by the stuck cleric.
The cleric was guessing where the drow would be, and the cries of the monk and fighter (the drow made no sound as they attacked hand to hand) tipped him off.
The Flame Strike catches two of the drow. One of them fails magic resistance, and burns to death. The other one is unscathed.
The unfortunate monk is caught in the Flame Strike also, and is killed.

The sudden, and this time unexpected, light dazzles the drow.
They retreat out of range of the cleric's spells, taking several semi-blind shots from the bow of the stuck fighter first.
Once they have recovered, they charge (squinting hard as they pass through the area of the Continual Light stones.)

The drow girls fire their bolts repeatedly, making pincushion out of both stuck characters, felling them with the sleep poison.

The irritated drow then cast Animate Dead on their slain comrade, and also upon the slain monk and slain cleric.
The rest of the party is stripped, trussed up, and the mage has her fingers and tongue removed (unfortunately, her Contingency doesn't cover this, and she isn't teleported away to safety.) The still living cleric suffers a similar fate, as does the monk.
The drow have a Ring of Regeneration to fix this, later on, should they desire to fix their work.

The party is taken away.
Soon, they will give pleasure to the drow.
Their agonized screams will be most satisfying, as their items are studied and claimed for later use against other adventurers foolish enough to come into the Underdark.
Eventually, most of the adventurers will be sacrificed to Lolth.
Two of them will be kept as personal slaves of two of the drow, for the amusement of these girls.

Such is the fate of those who dare to challenge the supremacy of the drow.

 

[Henrix]

I am sure something like this would happen in 3rd edition.

Thankfully at least not as easily.
If not else because Spell Resistance never works against spells not cast on you, like the party's silence, invisibility, etc.
Boots of Elvenkind just give you +10 Move Silently.
Etc, etc.
A lot has changed.

But intelligently played Drow fought in their own dark homeground would still be serious trouble.

 

[Carnifex]

Well, you're right to a point in that drow *should* be hard to ebat if they're like the ones usually depicted (loads of magic etc). There are a few points I'd like to pick at in your post though:

The advancing party cannot see the drow, for the drow have Piwalfis that defeat normal sight and even infravision (darkvision.) Furthermore, the drow can Hide In Shadows as a racial trait.
The advancing party cannot hear the drow, for the drow wear their own version of Boots of Elvenkind, and are absolutely silent when they move (even in their metallic armor and with metal weapons.)

I'm just trying to remember the rules for the drow boots - were they 100% move silently? Even if they were, I'm pretty sure the usual rules for penalties due to armour still applied, though I could be wrong.

The party is carrying torches, which makes them easy for the drow to see.
Or perhaps the party walking in the dark, using infravision. The drow have infravision (to 120 feet, farther than the party's) so the drow see the party.
Or perhaps the party threw invisibility on themselves. The drow magic resistance defeated that, and the drow see the party.

Okay, I'm not convinced that a 12th level party would just have torches. This is primarily from a practical point of view, since you'd have to carry a lot of torvhes to last you for a trek through the underdark. Anyway, I'd reckon there'd be lots of continual lights, magical weapons and items glowing, and suchlike. And btw, magic resistance means that the drow are notorious for hostile magics just sliding off them - but it doesn't help against invisibility, since that spell has not been cast at them, and they don't get a MR roll against it. Invisibility would work.

The drow heard the party coming for the last 20 minutes.
Even if the party was magically silenced, the drow heard them, for the drow magic resistance (spell resistance) of 75% defeated the Silence spells cast by the party clerics.

Well, again, they don't get MR against Silence unless it was cast on an area that they were within. Plus the fact that the party may well have someone with an extremely high move silently skill or boots of elvenkind.

The party mage could have Stoneskinned the party.
However, the mage does not know exactly when to throw the Stoneskin spells (or other spells of this sort), for the party has a long journey and opponents could be anywhere along the way.
And perhaps the party mage saved the Stoneskins for himself (and, thus, has one up currently.) Mages do do such things.
The point being, the party does not have Stoneskin spells up currently.

Yup, fair enough, after all the idea of an ambush is to hit your opponent when his spells are down - except that stoneskin lasts a *long* time, and if the party is expecting trouble then the mage may well have already cast it on himself.

The party thief is on point, but she cannot see or hear the drow.
Her detect magic was foiled by the drow's Hide in Shadows abilities (the drow expect this kind of scanning.)
Her detect poison and find traps locate nothing.
Her detect life is foiled by the Hide in Shadows as was her detect magic.
Her clairaudience might have worked, but a throw of the dice for the entire drow group (for magic resistance) failed her.

Hide in shadows doesn't protect against detect magic.

True Seeing would have spotted the drow, but True Seeing has a very limited duration, and neither of the party clerics has it up.

Out of a darkness inpenetrable to the thief comes 10 bolts, fired from 5 hand crossbows by hands that move with lightning speed.
The thief goes down, succumbing to the sleep poison in the bolts.

Yes, pretty likely if the theif is scouting out ahead, I'd say he's a goner, but then again he'd have to be pretty dumb to be ranging out ahead too far of the party if tyhey're in the underdark.

In 2nd edition, initiative would now be rolled.
The extremely fast drow gain initiative, and they attack again.
Expecting a volley of Continual Light stones and blasts from spells, not to mention charging fighters, the drow move fast to counteract all of these.
A fireball detonates behind the party. It's flames move up and down the tunnel, enveloping the entire party but not the drow. This causes damage and wrecks any spellcasting on the party's part.
A web spell is placed between the drow and the party, to block any charges.
4 more poisoned bolts are fired from two of the drow, this time at one of the clerics, downing him.
The drow - knowing their darkness spells won't stop a flood of Continual Light stones - simply retreat down the tunnel out of the target area (and yes, the drow can cast spells and fire missiles, as they retreat.)

One of the fighters has a Ring of Free Action and passes through the Web.
The drow anticipated this possibility, and one of them now fires her Wand of Viscid Globs.
The fighter is ensnared in the Glob, and halted.

Note that the drow are trying to take the party alive.
Otherwise, these five female drow would have fired three Fireballs and two Frostballs on their surprise attack, then fired three more Fireballs and two more Frostballs from readied scrolls.

The drow see that one of the fighters, one of the clerics, and the thief, are down.
This leaves the monk, one fighter, one cleric, and the mage to be dealt with.

The mage and one of the clerics were spellcasting, but their spells were ruined by the Fireball.
The other cleric threw a number of Continual Light stones, now illuminating brightly an area of the tunnel between the drow and the party (including the downed thief, the web, and the entrapped fighter in it.)
The last fighter and the monk stopped their charges due to the Web blocking the way.

The drow and the party throw initiative, and the drow win again.
The drow know they cannot douse all the Continual Light stones, nor can they see through the light to make out the party.
They know the party cannot see them.
They also know the mage and the clerics may fire spells blindly, hoping to hit them in the concealing darkness.
They fire first.

They fire three Fireballs and two Frostballs, placing the center of the explosions far behind the visible Web.
The blasts hit all of the party except the fighter ensnared on the drow side of the Web and the thief, unconscious on the floor on the drow side of the Web.
The unconscious cleric is caught in all five blasts and killed. The mage, with few hit points, is also killed. The monk is able to dodge enough of the explosions that she survives. The standing fighter, unable to get through the Web or free her companion caught in it, easily survives the blasts.
The standing cleric survives the blasts, but his spellcasting is ruined.

Why do the drow keep on winning the initiative? There's no reason for this as far as I can tel, since the party may include high-speed characters. In addition, a handful of 5d6 fireballs againts characters with good saves might well achieve very little actual damage.[/b]

One of the drow girls calls out in Common for the party to surrender.
The standing cleric, fighter, and monk tell the drow where to go.

Initiative is rolled, and the drow win again.
The drow are very good at pinpointing enemies by sound, and the standing party members foolishly opened their mouths.
One of the drow Dispels the Web.
Then 4 Viscid Globs are fired at the 3 standing party members (the standing fighter, the monk, and the standing cleric.)

The cleric is caught and held in the Globs. The monk and standing fighter charge.

Normally a charge would bring the monk and the fighter into combat.
Indeed, they reach the drow.
Then, unable to see or hear the drow, they run right past them (even though they can guess where they would be, approximately.)
For they had to run through the bright light of the area of the Continual Light stone, and then into the darkness beyond, where the drow were.[/b]

If they can't see them, then they probably wouldn't charge them. I wouldn't. I'd pull back to cover.

The drow oblige this, then strike from the rear with poisoned swords and knives in both hands, attacking 10 times, 5 attacks on each person.
These attacks hit (the drow weapons are heavily enchanted), and the sleep poison takes effect.

The monk and the fighter go down, fast asleep.

At this point, a Flame Strike erupts, cast by the stuck cleric.
The cleric was guessing where the drow would be, and the cries of the monk and fighter (the drow made no sound as they attacked hand to hand) tipped him off.
The Flame Strike catches two of the drow. One of them fails magic resistance, and burns to death. The other one is unscathed.
The unfortunate monk is caught in the Flame Strike also, and is killed.

Sad but true fact, area effect spells in situations like this #(Where you don't know where the enemy or your allies are) are often a bad idea.

The sudden, and this time unexpected, light dazzles the drow.
They retreat out of range of the cleric's spells, taking several semi-blind shots from the bow of the stuck fighter first.
Once they have recovered, they charge (squinting hard as they pass through the area of the Continual Light stones.)

Except we're talking about a high-level cleric here, who probably promptly a)blasts more high level spells at them or b) really screws with their day by using protective spells, dispels, and neutralise poisons to bring the party back into the fight.

The drow girls fire their bolts repeatedly, making pincushion out of both stuck characters, felling them with the sleep poison.

The irritated drow then cast Animate Dead on their slain comrade, and also upon the slain monk and slain cleric.
The rest of the party is stripped, trussed up, and the mage has her fingers and tongue removed (unfortunately, her Contingency doesn't cover this, and she isn't teleported away to safety.) The still living cleric suffers a similar fate, as does the monk.
The drow have a Ring of Regeneration to fix this, later on, should they desire to fix their work.

I dunno, lots of your scenario seems to rely on the characters being dumb and the drow winning the init all the time - both unlikely, especially when dealing with 12th level characters.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Even if the above scenario (which involved 7 12th level characters against 5 7th level drow) is not accurate, I would expect most fights against the drow to end in this sorry way (well, sorry for the adventurers, at least.)
The drow are simply too smart, too well trained, and too well acclimated to their surroundings.
There is little to no hope for surface adventurers to achieve victory against them.

Basically, then, it is impossible to go against the drow.

The best answer to drow is to let them come to you, on the surface, where they are weakened and unprepared for what they will find.
Even then, they are extremely formidable opponents.

The Battle of Mithril Hall (see the Siege of Darkness novel by Salvatore) would have gone far differently in our campaign.
In our campaign, the drow would have taken Mithril Hall without difficulty (especially as there were no dwarven wizards to oppose them.)

The aid of Alustriel would have made the difference - outside - where the drow would have lost the battle of Fourthpeak.
However, inside, the dwarven army and the Harpells would have been overwhelmed.
The Battleragers would have all fallen in a single round.
And Drizzt Do'Urden, Bruenor, Catti-Brie, and Regis could not, alone, have made a significant difference in the outcome (although they could have survived by running.)
Even the well-laid traps of the dwarves would not have availed them. Their foes are mistresses of traps and tricks, and would have bypassed them all.

The only way I could see Mithril Hall standing against the massive assault is if Alustriel and the Knights of Silver had marched, in their full strength (that is, the entire armed and magical might of Silverymoon, along with all her best magical items) had gone into Mithril Hall proper, and they had deployed against the invasion in the lower levels.
Alustriel could have gained the immediate aid of her Sisters, Khelben, Elminster, and great forces from Waterdeep, Shadowdale, and perhaps from cities in the Lords Alliance.

Even with all of that, it would have been a desperate battle, and casualties would have been enormous.
There is a good chance Mithril Hall would have been totally destroyed (beyond rebuilding) in the great battle (especially when the drow realized they were not going to win, and decided to destroy what they could not have.)

Just my opinion.

Of course, in our campaign, Gromph - Archmage of Menzoberranzan - and all of the city's top mages and magistresses would have gone to fight.
The immense might of the Academy would have been brought to bear.
Noble Houses would have put aside their feuds to destroy the common enemy, each hoping to gain greater glory and favor in the eyes of Lolth.

The drow would not have retreated without the bitterest of fights.
They would not have retreated, for this would have dishonored themselves in the eyes of Lolth (worse than death for them), and no House would have retreated when other Houses were standing and fighting.

 

[Carnifex]

One thing I will say - I'd have thought most drow bands would have consisted of more than just 5 people anyway.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Some good points there.

Let me comment on your points.

POSTED:

I'm just trying to remember the rules for the drow boots - were they 100% move silently? Even if they were, I'm pretty sure the usual rules for penalties due to armour still applied, though I could be wrong.

ANSWER

As far as I know, these Boots gave a 90% chance to Move Silently.
However, I was assuming the drow could Move Silently also as a natural ability, and through long training.
Also, these five drow girls know the territory, have scouted out every rock and crevace, and know just where to step, just how to move and maneuver.

POSTED

Okay, I'm not convinced that a 12th level party would just have torches. This is primarily from a practical point of view, since you'd have to carry a lot of torvhes to last you for a trek through the underdark. Anyway, I'd reckon there'd be lots of continual lights, magical weapons and items glowing, and suchlike. And btw, magic resistance means that the drow are notorious for hostile magics just sliding off them - but it doesn't help against invisibility, since that spell has not been cast at them, and they don't get a MR roll against it. Invisibility would work.

ANSWER

Agreed. A 12th level party would not be carrying torches.
They would indeed be using the glow from magical weapons, have continual light stones, and the like.
But if they did, they could not be invisible, and the drow would see them (or, at least, they would see the light, and with Blindfighting ability could approximate well enough the location of each party member.)

If the party is Invisible, it is reasonable to assume they are using Infravision or a similar ability to see.
The drow would rely upon the sounds the party was making, to locate each one of them fairly precisely (the drow Blindfighting ability is rather legendary.)

If the party was Silenced but not Invisible, the drow would rely on sight - and with their Infravision they can see farther than any Infravision spell allows for.
And the drow are always expecting attack. The moment they saw the party, they would react instantly.

If the party was both invisible and silenced (and could function that way as a party), they might surprise the drow.
However, the drow could also have Clairaudience.
Drow females can read surface thoughts (ask Drizzt Do'Urden!)
If they can read thoughts, they can sense thoughts.

It is quite likely one of them is doing just that, scrying for thoughts down the passageway.
Pity the poor adventurers who think themselves totally undetectable, when their every thought is known to the drow.

And Clairaudience would not work back against the drow, unless it penetrated their magic resistance.
It truly is a One Way Street here.

POSTED

Well, again, they don't get MR against Silence unless it was cast on an area that they were within.
Plus the fact that the party may well have someone with an extremely high move silently skill or boots of elvenkind.

ANSWER

See my comments above.
No magical silence or move silently skill is good against drow Clairaudience.
Even if the drow are not using Clairaudience, they are attuned to hear the ... slightest ... sound (they could literally hear the breathing of the party members at 120 feet.)

POSTED

Yup, fair enough, after all the idea of an ambush is to hit your opponent when his spells are down - except that stoneskin lasts a *long* time, and if the party is expecting trouble then the mage may well have already cast it on himself.

ANSWER

In my experience, mages tend to be selfish with Stoneskin spells (which is, IMO, stupid.)
Even assuming a good team mage, however, he or she has only so many Stoneskins.
Even though they last a long time, marching through the Underdark takes a long time - a march could go on for an entire day.
There is a good chance the Stoneskins will run out before the party reaches the drow.
There is a good chance the poor mage will hold off on throwing Stoneskin, hoping he or she can do it in battle as needed.

However, assuming the party is Stoneskinned, the drow are at a disadvantage.
This is where they, if possible - seeing their bolts did not work - would start throwing Fireballs.

POSTED

Hide in shadows doesn't protect against detect magic.

ANSWER

Very true.
If I were a drow, I would hide in a crevace in the walls (if none existed, I would relocate to a place that had such crevaces.)
Or, I would hide behind stalagmites jutting up from the floor (again, if none existed, I would relocate to a place that had them.)
These would shield against Detection spells, which require line of sight.

I most certainly would do ... something ... to avoid Detect Magic.
Remember that all drow have this as an innate ability.
They would be able to see each other, in their magical armor, glowing like Christmas Trees.
They would practice at evading and hiding from such detection spells as a part of their normal training.

POSTED

Yes, pretty likely if the theif is scouting out ahead, I'd say he's a goner, but then again he'd have to be pretty dumb to be ranging out ahead too far of the party if tyhey're in the underdark.

ANSWER

Unfortunately for the poor thief and his player, he or she doesn't always have much of a choice.
All too often the party leader says: Go out there and scout, or else. And the poor thief has to do it.

If there is not someone on point, the party is much more vulnerable to a surprise attack (as opposed to the unfortunate on point.)

The whole idea of someone on point is that he or she takes the assault, not the party, giving them time to react (and hopefully, the point person will survive the attack, or can be resurrected afterwards.)
If the whole party dies in the attack, then obviously nobody can be resurrected, whereas if they survive, the point person can be brought back.

POSTED

Why do the drow keep on winning the initiative? There's no reason for this as far as I can tel, since the party may include high-speed characters. In addition, a handful of 5d6 fireballs againts characters with good saves might well achieve very little actual damage.

ANSWER

The drow keep winning initiative because they have Dexterities of 17, 18, 19, and 20, whereas the party has Dexterities ranging from 10 to 18.
Remember that in 2nd Edition, characters do not gain stat points when going up in level.

Also, remember that - if you go by Gary Gygax's original conception - female drow had fantastically high stats on average (male drow were a bit worse off ...)

Also, these drow are in familiar terrain, and are comfortable in their surroundings.
The party is in strange and unfamiliar territory (if not downright oppressive to some of them.)

This would not affect initiative rolls per se, but it does make a difference in a fight.

POSTED

Sad but true fact, area effect spells in situations like this #(Where you don't know where the enemy or your allies are) are often a bad idea.

ANSWER

Agreed.
The cleric did this because he was desperate. Most of his party was down, and all of the enemy were still standing.
Also, fear was a motivating factor. Legendary, horrible accounts of what the drow did to prisoners was going through his mind, and it was obvious to him the drow were indeed trying to capture him and his party.
He struck as hard as he could to prevent that capture from happening.

POSTED

Except we're talking about a high-level cleric here, who probably promptly a)blasts more high level spells at them or b) really screws with their day by using protective spells, dispels, and neutralise poisons to bring the party back into the fight.

ANSWER

Unfortunately for the hapless cleric, he can only throw one spell at a time.
He is also stuck in a Viscid Glob.
Does he free himself from it with a spell?
Does he throw a spell to put one of the people in the party back into action?
Does he strike at the drow with a spell?

He has to do something, but he doesn't have long to make up his mind, and he knows he will only get one spell out before the drow return their attention to him.

What does he do?

POSTED

I dunno, lots of your scenario seems to rely on the characters being dumb and the drow winning the init all the time - both unlikely, especially when dealing with 12th level characters.

ANSWER

Players grow tired, along with their characters.
The drow do not have to do this alone - they can summon monsters to go harass and weaken the party (if monsters don't already block the tunnel between them and the party.)

The party fights battle after battle, pushing down the tunnel.
After a way, characters (and their players) stop being cautious, start letting down their vigil from sheer exhaustion, start making mistakes small and large.
The drow are fresh, have fought no battles today at all, and above all they know the penalty for failure in their mission - if not at the hands of their superiors, then at the hands of Lolth.
In other words, these girls are fanatical soldiers as well as effective soldiers, and it is all too likely they will face exhausted, battle-weary, and careless opponents.

Or, even more dangerous to the party, the drow may be facing overconfident adventurers, who think that in numbers and level they are safe from a Total Party Kill.
If someone dies, that someone can always be resurrected. And Everyone Knows the drow won't kill the whole party (and Everyone Knows the DM won't kill the whole party, also.)

This is a fatal way to think, but adventurers and their players think this way, all too often.

If they survive their first encounter with the drow, they will - like a fighter pilot who survives his first aerial battle - never think in such ways again.
Their thinking will be forever altered, after their first fight with the drow.

If their thinking is not altered, the DM did not do his or her job very well, in my opinion.

Edena_of_Neith

 

[Berk]

*whips out the old 2e books and blows the dust off of them all the while sneezing profusely*

There are flaws in all of this. First off it's kinda silly to think that a thief would first of all just walk up strolling along, they would do it with stealth and cunning(tm). Hide in shadows move silently, and if they are 12th lvl they most likely have some magic items, and almost every must have for thieves are boots of elvenkind and a cloak of elvenkind. Boots give what? 99% to move silently and the cloak gives 90% to be unseen, even with infravision and the such. These are relatively cheap magic items, and if ya wanna go even cheaper there is always dust of disappearance. Plus don't forget the invisibility spell, which means they can't be seen by anything cept detect invis and true seeing. Also I am sure that any party "respectful" of their "sneaky" friends abilities will give them a nice grace distance of atleast 50 or so feet. And while we are at it make the thief an elf or halfling. So now that that is out of the way, how do you plan on shooting hand crossbow bolts through a web? That one boggles me. Plus remember drow are only 75% magic resistant. That isn't 100%. Never assume, it only makes people look foolish. =op And don't forget that is a die roll for each drow, not as a group. The inititive thing also, that boggles me to assume that the drow automatically gain inititive. Again with the firing stuff through the web with the fireballs and frostballs. Those spells would detonate as soon as they touched the web hence forth prolly over taking the drow themselves. While they have spell resistance they are intelligent beings and know they aren't immune to magic, just highly resistant. Anyways I'm not gonna go on rambling about what else is wrong with the senario but with just the few things I pointed out cambat has gone drastically different. Not saying the party has a cake walk with the drow, just saying the drow deffinately don't have a cake walk with the party.

 

[Berk]

Just read more of the following posts. This is so concerning the battle of Mithral Hall. Never, and I repeat never, underestimate dwarves when they must defend their hearths and their precious metals and gem stones and shall I also say basically their most sacred of cities. Personally I believe that the drow didn't stand a chance against a well fortified dwarven stronghold, which Mithral Hall was. Plus with Drizzt and all of them there to help. Oh, and having one of "the seven sisters" as an ally never hurts shall I say. It's like having Elminster on your side almost.

 

[Celtavian]

Re

I haven't read the book about the battle for Mithral Hall.

I still think seasoned adventurers know well how to battle drow. I think a lvl 12 party would be able to take a drow patrol, though they might have to retreat when reinforcements are called.

I believe you sorely underestimate dwarves to think that they have little experience fighting drow. I am quite sure that an army of dwarves having battled every creature in the Underdark would know how to take on a drow incursion.

Dwarves would have much better arms and armor than elves for one. They would shrug off the sleep poison of the drow. Their frontline army would probably be wearing armor that would help them resist battle magics such as fireball. Dwarves are no push overs. They are some of the fiercest, well-equipped enemies any race could hope to go against.

A dwarf warrior is worth a drow warrior or two anyday of the weak. The priestly magic of the dwarven gods would match that of the drow gods any day of the week. The only advantage the drow would have is their sorcerous magic. In 3e, we would most likely see a nice team of dwarven war wizards to handle drow battle magic.

My money is on the dwarves if they battle versus the drow, unless the drow forces outnumber the dwarves 10 to 1.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

The drow are very bright beings.
Bright beings, with sociopathic minds, and an obsession to win, kill, and destroy.

Now, the drow could lay an ambush for the party. I discounted that, making them fight the party in a tunnel.

However, most drow would indeed go for an ambush. Straight fighting, person to person (honest fighting, as a cavalier might say) is unthinkable to the drow (or, at the least, very stupid.)

I am remembering now that the drow do have clairaudience.
They would most certainly use it, these drow girls.
The thief, elven boots and cloak, and dust of disappearance, etc. etc. not withstanding, would be spotted pretty quick.

The drow would not fire any spell through a Web that could not be fired through a Web.
That is a given - these are trained magistresses or mages.
They would Dispel their Web, then fire spells.

However, whether the spark that flies out to the target and beoomes a Fireball would be halted by a Web is a good question, and one I have no answer to.

Assuming the drow do not have clairaudience, and the thief does have Boots and Cloak of Elvenkind (which is reasonable), then it is quite possible the thief would walk by the drow, and neither side would notice the other.
Each side would be unable to penetrate the other's disguises.
The thief would walk on, and the drow would assault the unwarned and thus unprepared party - and in turn would be surprised by the thief.

I am saying though that drow, in my opinion, would indeed have a cakewalk with many adventuring parties of their own caliber.
The drow are just so dangerous, so capable, and so altogether devastating in their conception that it would take a very devious, well armed, and magically capable party to give the drow a real run for their money.

As for the Battle of Mithril Hall, that is subjective to each person, of course.
Everyone will think differently on what would happen, and why, in that scenario.

I just happen to think Menzoberranzan would have done what it later successfully did with Blindenstone - that is to say, wipe it out.

I think Menzoberranzan, if united, could successfully attack and destroy Silverymoon itself. And THAT is no mean feat to try to accomplish!