The problem with fighting drow

[Edena_of_Neith]

Ok, let me be more specific about why the drow would have utterly destroyed Mithril Hall - in our campaign.

First and most importantly, in our campaign the drow would have worked as a team.
Secondly, and just as important, none of the drow would have retreated, or lost morale - not even when the sun rose.
Thirdly, the drow would have fought as fanatics fight, without asking for quarter and with all the passion of zealots.

Why?

Because this pleases the Spider Queen.
This, earns the drow a place in Drow Heaven, at Lolth's Side.
This, earns the Favor of Lolth for each drow in question.
This, earns the Favor of Lolth for each Noble House in question.

No drow will risk losing the Favor of Lolth by being a coward, or failing in battle.
After all, a drow can be resurrected by her House after the battle, but losing the Favor of Lolth - well, that is a fate far worse than any mere death!
And if a drow is not resurrected, and she died gloriously, she will stand with Lolth in Heaven, and maybe even return as a Yochlol or other favored creature, to forever harass and damage and kill the hated elves.

No Noble House will risk the wrath of Lolth by retreating, when other Houses are still standing and fighting.
No strike force (such as Baenre's) will risk the Displeasure of Lolth by retreating when things start to go roughly.

And if Lolth is not a deterrent to cowardice or (intelligent) retreat, then one's superiors ... is ...
No drow wants to suffer the grisly fate her superiors will mete out for incompetence or what is deemed incompetence. Death is a far better (and less painful) alternative.

Thus, what we have here is an army of religious fanatics, and those in the army that are not religious fanatics are driven by a very real fear of death and far worse than death at the hands of their own people.

This goes ten fold for the horde of monsters - fodder - brought by the drow to be flung into the dwarven traps to bring them down.

- - -

Drow have the inherent capacity to be wizards.
Dwarves, do not.

In 2nd edition, this was the case, and it was during the time of 2nd edition that Siege of Darkness was written.

And it would be reasonable to assume that many males and some females in Menzoberranzan (which, admittedly, has a real attitude problem on this one) would be wizards.

So, Menzoberranzan can - and would - field a formidable army of mages.
Many of these mages would be high level, just as many drow are high level, and all have levels of some type.

Remember that, in 2nd edition, the average dwarf had NO levels at all ... he or she was a 0 level commoner, with 2 - 7 hit points as a laborer.

So, the drow have an army of mages.
The dwarves have Alustriel - but Alustriel is only helping outside, not inside, and Alustriel has not brought along her Sisters, nor any other major magical help.
The Harpells are inside. But the Harpells are only 4 mages: 4 mages against Menzoberranzan's Army of Mages.

As I have noted above, the typical dwarf has no levels in 2nd edition.
The concept that everyone has levels is a 3rd edition concept, and in 2nd edition it was unheard of.
And so it is here.

But the entire fighting force of drow has levels, either as fighters, mages, clerics, or rogues.

That means, in simple D&D mechanical terminology, that the drow warriors were superior, one for one, than the dwarves they faced.
Those dwarves WITH levels were, of course, better able to stand against drow and were more their equals.

The idea of using liquor as a Sleep Poison Antidote is neat.
However, in our campaign it would not work.
Dwarven brew, however potent, would not be more potent than the infamous drow sleeping poison, developed and perfected over millenia of drow research.

And if the drow sleeping poison does work, then it most certainly would be used.
It would be used, and it would penetrate the armor of the dwarves, and it would fell them.
Then the sleeping dwarves would be killed, then and there.

Drow are FAMOUS for their arms and armor.
Indeed, EVERY drow weapon is a magical weapon, and all of their armor is magical.
Not to mention it is masterwork armor, and those are masterwork weapons, and then some.
The drow have time aplenty and to spare to make these items, and like elves work dilligently and longly (if not patiently) to make them.

Drow armor is nearly weighless, does not hinder spellcasting, and is nearly as fine as elven chain is.
Drenched in the strange radiations of the Underdark, drow armor and weapons are ever further enhanced and enpowered, and ever more powerful and lethal.

The dwarves make good arms and armor, perhaps the best of all the surface races (the elves might dispute this.)
However, they cannot match the drow, who have labored uninterrupted to make powerful, magical arms and armor over thousands of years.
There is nobody in Faerun that can match the drow. For that matter, there is no surface race on any of the major campaign worlds that can match the drow in arms and armor.

Just so long as they are not touch by sunlight, drow arms and armor are supreme.
Put them in sunlight, and it's all over for the drow, armor, arms and all.
However, Mithril Hall is not bathed in sunlight; it is deep under the ground.

So, the drow have mages, and the dwarves don't.
The drow have magical arms and armor, and the dwarves don't.
The drow have an army of cannon folder, and the dwarves don't.

The drow all have character levels, and the dwarves don't (although, admittedly, Clan Battlehammer has a disproportionately high number of classed individuals within it's ranks.)

The drow have the better rogues.
Clan Battlehammer has scouts, yes, but Menzoberranzan has Bregan D'Arthe, Jarlaxle and Company.
Not to mention the fact that every drow is trained to be a rogue, whether they are one or not (classed as one.)
Every drow is taught to skulk, to hide, to stalk, to backstab. It is a fundamental way of life for the drow, that they must learn these skills - or die as a consequence of not learning them.

The brave and honorable dwarves of Clan Battlehammer and their allies, do not have this mindset, do not have much use for thieves and their ways (they have boxes to hold the hands of captured thieves ...), and they simply do not have an army of warriors trained to fight dirty, to fight a street fight, to do whatever it takes to win (the Battleragers being a notable exception to this rule.)

So, aside from the Gutbuster Brigade, the drow have an army of rogues and the dwarves do not.

EVERY drow girl who is anyone in Menzoberranzan, is a cleric.
And not 1st level, either - they quickly go up in levels.

Is every dwarf in Clan Battlehammer a cleric?
I think not.
I think they have a normal proportion of people to clerics, and clerics are rare in their society - as clerics are rare in all surface societies, relative to the number of people.

But Menzoberranzan is swarming with clerics, all of them fanatics, all of them ready to fight and die for the glory of Lolth, and the glory of Number One.

So, the drow have a huge number of clerics, and the dwarves have a limited number of clerics.

- - -

Let's go over all of this again:

The drow have wizards and illusionists, and the dwarves have none.
The drow have a lot of clerics, and the dwarves have only a few.
The drow have an army of rogues, and the dwarves only have their scouts (and the Gutbuster Brigade.)
The drow all have levels in some class, while at least half of Clan Battlehammer have no levels in any class.
The drow have an enormous army of Cannon Fodder. The dwarves have five hundred allies from the Silver Marches and Settlestone.
The drow have arsenals of magical arms and armor. The dwarves have only a few magical weapons and some armor.
The drow are at least the match of the dwarves as fighters (having lived in a City of Constant Strife.)
The drow can see better than the dwarves below ground.
The drow can move silently, and can hide in shadows. The dwarves cannot.
The drow all have innate magical abilities. The dwarves have none.
The drow can summon terrible extraplanar allies, such as Yochlol. The dwarves have only the help of Blindenstone's gnomes to match this.
The drow have steeds that can climb straight up rock faces. The dwarves do not.

I think the outcome is pretty clear here.

Dwarves are great, but they are not the match of the drow.
A lesson the dwarves learned long ago, and which the drow keep teaching them in a most painful fashion.
There is a reason the drow would conquer the Surface World, if they could but unite to do so.

Again, all of this is just my opinion.

Edena_of_Neith

P:S I thought Siege of Darkness was a great book, even if I disagreed with the outcome.

 

[Bonedagger]

Just on the spot I could throw one counterattack against drows of:

Lots of summoning spells casted by hasted characters. Once the first celestial bear, lions, etc. start to appear the drows will be forced to worry about them. (Drows generally don't have many hp and these critters deal a lot of damage) Be prepared to have one hasted spellcaster throw of Dispel Magics. (If the party is higher level than the drows the Dispel Magic will get through more than 50 % of the time (3e). At level 12 the party will, if they are smart, have acces to some sort of permanent See Invisibility) A wand with Dispel Magic is always a good thing by the way... Not just in this situation.

In round 3 the party could just sit back and enjoy the show. They don't really need to join if the drows are still standing by then.

Note: Have the other spellcaster wait with his action until he has become hasted. The only damage you should have to worry about is the one dealt by the drows surprise attack. If that is to much for you why are you then feeling an urge to walk around in the underdark?

Now. I have not mentioned an counteraction for everything the frail dirtdiggers could come up with but I have difficulties believing it would prove a problem.

Oh yes. The bears have Scent. They can quickly find the right square to attack even if the drows haven't become visible yet.


One last thing. The drows may be bright but a group of 12th level adventures shouldn't be a commen days work. Unless the drows have forthsight (not the spell) they would probably only have emergency defences for the most likely highlevel attacks.


Feel free to comment your idea on why this plan wouldn't work.


And finally. One very last thing. If you wizard is very low on hp have him prepare a Contigency that will be activated when he say a special word.. Like "Blue tomato". That is a good way to get a Mirror Image up quick.

Edit: A typo

 

[Tom Cashel]

Well, I'd sure hate to be fighting drow with you as the DM, Edena! It seems you've already decided the outcome of any fight against drow.

Just a couple things:

In 2e, Stoneskin lasts until it is "used up." i.e. the party mage can take a day to stoneskin the whole party, and then they're all protected indefinitely. That's 2e for ya.

Of course, in our campaign, Gromph - Archmage of Menzoberranzan - and all of the city's top mages and magistresses would have gone to fight.
The immense might of the Academy would have been brought to bear.
Noble Houses would have put aside their feuds to destroy the common enemy, each hoping to gain greater glory and favor in the eyes of Lolth.

And if Menzoberranzan existed in a vacuum, this would be a decent idea. But in the FR, leaving your whole city undefended to go exterminate some dwarves would be incredibly unwise. Gromph would return (provided he survived the wrath of the dwarven Gods, whose tendency to appear on FR battlefields where dwarves are threatened by overwhelming odds is very well-documented) to find Menzoberranzan completely destroyed by any one of the countless enemies of the drow who also dwell in the Underdark.

Just seems to me that this whole pro-drow stance is a little biased. They have advantages, sure...and even more "in their element," but they can be defeated by a careful, crafty, powerful group of PCs.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Your tactics are fine, Bonedagger.
I have no problems at all with them.

Please remember I am only a novice at 3rd edition tactics.
All my thinking (and the scenario I wrote) was based on 2nd edition thinking.

In 3rd edition, both the party and the drow have many more options available to them than in 2nd edition.

Interestingly, the drow are higher level characters (15th) than the party in 3rd edition, while much lower level (7th) than the party in 2nd edition.
And this translates to the drow having more Feats and Skills than the party does (for that matter, it means they have Feats, period, which is a uniquely 3rd edition concept.)
It also translates to the drow having more magic, in 3rd edition (as if the drow needed more magic ... LOL.)

There are, of course, still 7 party members to the 5 drow, either edition you use.

It goes without saying that if the mage and the 2 clerics can get spells off, the drow are in trouble.
The point of the drow attack was to prevent that from happening.
By preventing spellcasting and bottling up the fighters, the drow won the battle.

In 2nd edition, any damage would halt spellcasting, so the drow threw fireballs and frostballs. In 3rd edition, I suppose they would throw as many damaging spells as they could to overcome Concentration checks, to accomplish the same thing.
Or perhaps as many bolts or daggers hurled as possible, targetting the spellcasters (the nasty thing is, that in 3rd edition it is very hard to tell who is a spellcaster. That tin can with a sword over there just might be one.)

(shudders)

I can only imagine what the devious drow would do with the vast possibilities and freedom of 3rd edition.
I am sure some poor adventurers are finding out the answers the hard way, even as I write this.
For if one thing has not changed from 2nd to 3rd edition, it is the drow ATTITUDE.
And if the drow take you alive, you'll experience that attitude up close and personal.

They are called DARK elves for a reason, and not for the color of their skin or their burning eyes.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Oh, the Dark Elves are defeatable.

But not by just anyone.

Nobody walks into the Underdark with a load of magical items, and says: Here I am, Mr Powerful, then starts killing drow like they were orcs or goblins.

Not, at least, unless they are Epic Level (in which case an Epic Level Drow (SHUDDERS!!) will be sent to deal with them.)

Even people like Alustriel (or, for that matter, my toughest characters) must quietly tiptoe where the drow openly walk.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Part of the problem is the pathetically over the top nature of Drow magic items.

There is one solution that any high level party though will use. IT was one my party used when we were attacked by Drow.

Sunlight.

Not natural sunlight of course but spells like Sunray and others we devised. In my parties case it was the magical sunsword one can find in the origional Ravensloft module. The one that can blaze like the sun itself for 1D10 rounds.

Throw one of these out and whether or not the Drow are bothered by it 99% of their gear will be useless junk in mere seconds.

Boom, ambush or not the party now has the drow by the short hairs. There is not a single major item carried by the drow that can survive exposure to sunlight. All their cloaks and boots are toast, their armor is toast, possibly their weapons, as well as all that sleep venom which if I remember right cannot survive exposure to sunlight or fresh air.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Yes, sunlight, and spells or items that duplicate it fry the drow, and then some.

But it takes full sunlight - a Light spell won't do the job, and even Continual Light isn't bright enough.

Give me the Sunray spell every time, against the drow.
And Sunswords always were great items to have ...

 

[Bonedagger]

Please remember I am only a novice at 3rd edition tactics.
All my thinking (and the scenario I wrote) was based on 2nd edition thinking.

No maliciousness intended from my side. I still considder myself a novice in many parts of 3e.

The problem is that once we hit the 12th level it is hard to generalize party tactics. It's all relative and mostly depending on the circumstances... So many "if"s.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

There are such a thing as female drow commoners. Read your books again. Only women from NOBLE houses are automatically trained as clerics.

Second Clan Battlehammer (if you read the books) have just recently reclaimed the Halls from the occupying Drueger. This means the average dwarf there is not zero level.

Third, your Chaotic Evil drow sure work well together. Add a few dozen stabs in the back as one drow kills another at the right moment and you quickly realize why they will never well together in a large scale army. Lolth cares not when this happens. Hell she happily let her most powerful Matron Mother ever get killed by a mere Dwarf.

Fourth, dwarves in 2E just oozed magic resistance beyond what they have in 3E the same with poison. In fact when you actually read the rules you will notice that drow sleep poison gets no super negative to saves. So all those times in the book where a Dwarf falls asleep from one little dart hit is not very likely at all. The average dwarf without levels walks around with a +2 or +3 to his poison save.

Fifth, as was shown in a much earlier book the very stone walls of Mithril Hall were magic resistant. At one point a mage tried to magically force open the front door of Mithral Hall. The spell was reflected off with no effect at all. So all those mages are going to accomplish much less than you suggest.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Very true.

Nice to hear from you again, Bonedagger.

I hope things are going well with you!

And I know you're not being malicious, Bonedagger. I'm not either - it's just an opinion thread.

To Doc:

The problem with chaotic evil beings (like the drow) is that they will band together - temporarily - under a strong leader.
Orcs do this, and thus we get the imfamous Orc-Hoards.

In the case of the drow, I would hardly call Matron Baenre a strong leader; I would call her an incompetent strategist even if she was good at politics.
She was the wrong person to lead the Host of Menzoberranzan against Mithril Hall, and this fact the drow found out to their cost.

No, what the drow needed - and what they would have had in our campaign - was an inspirational leader, a religious leader, a leader who brandished the might of Lolth in one hand and the Favor of Lolth in the other.
In other words, a drow version of Muad'dib, assuming such a thing were possible.

Or, perhaps, someone who could briefly summon the Avatar of Lolth herself, to bless the drow.
THAT would provide inspiration (drow style) to the campaign against Mithril Hall!

But yeah, with people like Matron Baenre leading the charge, who needs enemies??