The problem with fighting drow

Only if you incorrectly convert a character from 2E to 3E.

A 2E Drow fighter3/Mage5/Cleric7 does not translate into a 15th level in 3E. It converts into more like a 9th level character.


Edena_of_Neith said:


Interestingly, the drow are higher level characters (15th) than the party in 3rd edition, while much lower level (7th) than the party in 2nd edition.
 
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oh ... my ... god!

those are some loooooong posts ...

I'm not going even read them all!

I'm sure it was brought up before, but (just so I can add in a redundant .02$) a silence on the party would having nothing to do with the drow's SR (Magic Resistance in 2e) since it was not cast on one of them. Unless the silence is an evocation (like wall of force, where a creature with MR could try to walk thru it ...) then as long as someone didn't try to cast it directly on one of the drow it should work. (considering how long it's been since I've played 2e ... I think that's how it works)
 

Edena_of_Neith said:
Very true.

Nice to hear from you again, Bonedagger. :) :) :)

I hope things are going well with you!


Thanks. They are going well.

Originally posted by Edena_of_Neith

And I know you're not being malicious, Bonedagger. I'm not either - it's just an opinion thread.


Just a rhetorical reflex I guess. Can't be to careful with a name like mine. :D


I hope the IR went well.
 
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Edena_of_Neith said:

The Battleragers would have all fallen in a single round.
How?
They are Bersekers, and would stand and fight, maim -kill even dying, for principle alone.

Even the well-laid traps of the dwarves would not have availed them. Their foes are mistresses of traps and tricks, and would have bypassed them all.
Traps on the battle field or to defend fortresses are like modern mine fiields.
if your enemy avoid them he couldn`t use this rote.
if he disarm then he looses time (at best) but xbowmen should reasinably took the drow under fire when trying this, it´s a bit difficuklt to diarm traps and dance with bolts and darkness would warn the defenders, fire out blind es pecially with light missiles could break the darkness.
other point avoiding traps, death gauntlet, if your enemy avoid the traps youz could lead them your chosen ways.
No MR in the planes help you against a few flamethrowers, fire resistence spells would, but not by the problems with air.
Another Question is if the sloppy drwo would be able to surppass the the superior dwarven craftmanship.
I seen small chances to get through the well defended gates of an dwarven fortresscity, without heaviest casualties, and not from bladefodder but from your finest.
Magic wouldn`t be overly useful because the dwarven clerics would have set wards against this.
Of course, in our campaign, Gromph - Archmage of Menzoberranzan - and all of the city's top mages and magistresses would have gone to fight.[The immense might of the Academy would have been brought to bear Noble Houses would have put aside their feuds to destroy the common enemy, each hoping to gain greater glory and favor in the eyes of Lolth.
Drow houses setting a side their inner house inner family feuding.
When you replace Lolth with elistraee, Baneetc...
Second when the full might of the drow had send agains MH, it had led menz undefended, i bet before they could have started the attack menz weould have been taken by an enemy.
razed to the ground, plundered and burned.
The drow hostz of menz had been without retreat without supply and fallen faster apart then you could say a wish.

They would not have retreated, for this would have dishonored themselves in the eyes of Lolth (worse than death for them), and no House would have retreated when other Houses were standing and fighting.
The drow have no concept of honor and gaining power for yoerself and your through betraying other drow could get you the favor of Lolth.
OTOh as fickle as the Spider is, her favor this year and her disfavor next year couldn`t made i worth anything at all, in the long run..

Alustriel could take every Archmage of Menz without problem, what a blow for the morale if your force see a human Wizarderess crunching without problem your mightiest Archmage.

The silver knights and the dwarves would fight as an unit with high esprit de corps.
As wrote in SoD dwarven didn`t hesitate to sacrifice their lives, fighting with their last dying breath, to help their clanmembers and shieldbrothers.
The drw wouldn`t risk a damn, to save their own family, if it didn`t have a real benefit for themselves, prefarbly they would use the battlefield to get rid of a few hindrances.
This isn`t a good thin when you need your eyes more on your back and your allies, then on the battlefield.

add to this the possibilty to collaps taken bastions and ways, and the drow wouldn`t be so forcefull any more, there aren´t so much spells to defend you from a collapsins Mountain and most would take to long.
 

Honestly Edena, I believe that you have not really proved your thesis to any extent. You proved some other issues.

First, yes 5/5/5 drow females in 2nd edition were quite badass. This is because 2nd Ed. multi-class characters were broken. They were well past broken in fact. Third has done a nice job of fixing this IMHO.

Secondly when you have made the case that a party of 5 5/5/5 drow in 3rd would wipe out a party of 12th level chracters (7 of them so party level of 13 or so), you are merely stating an expected outcome. Five 15th level drow makes for an encounter level of about 19-20, which would be expected to exterminate that party.

If you set up a reasonable encounter level, yes the drow could be challenging due to home turf, but it would not be a walkover.

While your case may be somewhat valid in 2nd Ed. (though people have exposed some major flaws), it falls apart almost completely when 3rd is used. Then again there are few who do not recognize deficiencies in 2nd ed.


Buzzard
 

Some things to keep in mind. Drow roll 3d6 for stats, just like everyone else. They don't have amazing stats, just a few simple modifiers. They don't have clairaudiance, or other "amazing" powers, they have only a few additional and weak powers. Their senses are no sharper then any other elf, they aren't smarter then most elves either. Drow clerics and drow wizards aren't a dime a dozen. Drow clerics all tend to be from noble houses, not commoners. So there aren't thousands of them, probably 150-200 or so clerics in a city like menzoberranzan. Of those, 95% of those will be 0-3rd lvl only. Even less numbers for wizards. Keep in mind that drow don't level any faster then other elves (in 3rd ed, they level slower actually).

Drow are only powerful because of culture. They have a culture of ruthlessness and malice. They have to survive in a harsh environment of betrayal. That gives them SOME advantages, but many disadvantages as well. They are unable to organize effectively for very long and even hunting parties/patrols are likely to be semi-disorganized. Each individual in the hunting party is looking for individual glory and power, not group glory and power. Thus they are likely to cast spells, use items, etc, that will help themselves and not the party as much. That reduces their effectiveness dramaticly (as anyone with military experience will tell you). That's the nature of Chaotic Evil. 1 Drow vs 1 PC, the odds are on the Drow, but 100 Drow vs 100 Lawful and organized dwarves/elves (whom have nearly as many magical items as the Drow), etc, I'll put my money on the the surface dwellers if both meet on even ground. Organized groups, historicly, win and overcome disorganized groups.

Drow are a powerful race, but their power is their cunning not magic and levels. When DM'd properly they are a challenge, but they shouldn't be DM'd in a unrealistic uber-mensch fashion. They have many weaknesses and those need to be kept in mind as well as their strengths.
 

Have only read the first post...

A 12th level party venturing into the Underdark should be better prepared than this. I don't know why the Drow should be able to foil any divination attempts to spot their ambushes with ease, but if so, a 12th level party would be likewise undetectable, just to be fair. We are speaking almost twice the experience here, and the party might include elves as well, even tho the 2nd edition drow are notorious for being uber-elves, altho all elves were pretty much uber in 2nd edition!

In 3rd edition, the drow (assuming 7th level, not 15th) would be just dead meat against this kind of party (assuming intelligent players), unless they had some outrageous luck on their side (or the DM just doesn't want them to lose)!

A 12th level party could be completely invisible, silenced, communicating telepathically, and using darkvision (altho the drow do have an advantage here with their 120'), so no light or sound to give their presence away.

Bye
Thanee
 


About the battle against the dwarfs, if the drow would attack with such an overwhelming force (the comment about leaving their home undefended would still hold true, tho), then yes, they could win.

But the smart dwarfs would then be calling for help, I suppose, and with the tons of magical means to communicate and travel instantly, they might get a formidable amount of resistance up within minutes (which could even include people like Elminster himself)! And then there are still the gods to be bothered with in the FR, and Lolth is a rather weak god compared to some of the good ones.

And finally, the drows are evil, and good always wins in the end! This is fantasy, not real life! :D ;)

On a related topic, I have used a drow sorcerer (16th, later 18th level) in 3rd edition to trouble my party (12th~14th later 14th~17th level). The drow bonuses really show in higher levels and, altho they have defeated him twice (barely, outnumbering him 3 to 1) now, they were yet unable to terminally kill him, as he has means to come back to life (Clone is such a nice spell :)), unless prevented from doing so (which is no easy task). The fights against him both times lasted for several hours of real life time. :D

Bye
Thanee
 

Edena_of_Neith said:


P:S I thought Siege of Darkness was a great book, even if I disagreed with the outcome.

First and most importantly, in our campaign the drow would have worked as a team.
Then you are not using the FR Lolthspawn of drow, who are more used to kill themselves then others.
Thirdly, the drow would have fought as fanatics fight, without asking for quarter and with all the passion of zealots.
and without brains!
Mindless fanatics maybe made good bladefodder but lousy soldiers and especially lousy Commanders
And if a drow is not resurrected, and she died gloriously, she will stand with Lolth in Heaven, and maybe even return as a Yochlol or other favored creature, to forever harass and damage and kill the hated elves.
By Lolth ion heaven, the pits of Hell are not the more suited place;)
And if Lolth is not a deterrent to cowardice or (intelligent) retreat, then one's superiors ... is ...
Lousy stupid commanders, better to be replaced as soon as possible when not from higher rank then from lower rank.
Thus, what we have here is an army of religious fanatics, and those in the army that are not religious fanatics are driven by a very real fear of death and far worse than death at the hands of their own people.
Could i call this a recipe for disaster?
More fear from back then from enemy, commanders who wouldn`t waste their troops with no sense to the realities, attacking an enemy in a Dwarven fortress built by the superior skill, motivatin and craftmanship of dwarves.
This goes ten fold for the horde of monsters - fodder - brought by the drow to be flung into the dwarven traps to bring them down.
You are absolutely right this goes tenfold at least for the monsters, ready to mutiny, desert, retreat etc at the smallest chance of success.

The idea of using liquor as a Sleep Poison Antidote is neat.
Why not? the poison from the arrows work why shouldn`t somebody a pre countermeasure
 

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