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D&D General The Problem with Talking About D&D

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
Also, overgeeked, I was just having a discussion the other day on the forums about someone who plays in all martial campaigns, and they assured me they were fine not having a healer. That's not been my experience at all, but he claimed it worked just fine.

Do they face the suggested number of encounters? Or even the suggested difficulty? Does their DM go out of their way not to use challenges that normally require magic to solve? Or give them access to other ways to achieve those ends? I have no idea, but it shows that the game can be very forgiving to different kinds of groups.

Which is probably why it's gotten it's "easy mode" reputation.
 

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Thomas Shey

Legend
DMG252. Iwould be overselling it if I called it a vague handwave of permission to run a fast & loose totm chase. It's mostly some rough advice with examples in a table for dramatic events could be used to cause one side or the other to get hung up a bit by the environment if players aren't seeking it out themselves. Think of it like the knocking over shelves throwing furniture & weaving through difficult terrain like crowds kinda stuff that comes up in nearly any tv/movie chase scene.

Then I still think its most likel a loser; the truth is, on the whole more opponents have a higher mobility than most PCs even accounting for magic, which can lead to a situation where all running away does is provide an opportunity for the pursuers to get an attack in every couple of rounds that the PCs aren't going to respond to. Anything a PC normally takes time to do to slow opponents takes up about as much time as it'll slow said opponents, and its hard to effectively use terrain that most of the time the opponents are going to know as well or better than you do.
 

overgeeked

B/X Known World
But what is D&D in the first place is hotly contested, overgeeked, as I'm sure you can see.
I don't think it is. I think it's mostly down to people confusing “how they play D&D” with “what D&D is supposed to be”. D&D is whatever's in the book. That's it. AD&D is what's in the AD&D books. B/X is what's in Moldvay Basic and Cook Expert. 5E is what's in the 5E books. But that's not the same as the nearly infinite variation between tables in the hows and whys people play.
And just because one person looks at the game and says "aha, it should be played thusly" does not mean that is necessarily the "correct" way to play.
Of course not. But the game is what it is. And it tells you what it is. For example:

"In the DUNGEONS & DRAGONS game, each player creates an adventurer (also called a character) and teams up with other adventurers (played by friends). Working together, the group might explore a dark dungeon, a ruined city, a haunted castle, a lost temple deep in a jungle, or a lava-filled cavern beneath a mysterious mountain. The adventurers can solve puzzles, talk with other characters, battle fantastic monsters, and discover fabulous magic items and other treasure."
I've played in most eras of the game, and I've seen how the game is constantly evolving and changing...and sometimes regressing as well.
Well, change is inevitable. But “progress” and “regression” are judgements about that change. That’s up to the individual to decide.
But this is what the PHB says: "Above all else, D&D is yours. The friendships you make around the table will be unique to you. The adventures you embark on, the characters you create, the memories you make- these will be yours. D&D is your personal corner of the universe, a place where you have free reign to do as you wish."
Sure. And the PHB also has 316 pages of rules on combat, spells, races, backgrounds, classes, bond, etc. The game isn't those few lines you quoted. The game is the sum total of the rules. The game as actually played is all the rules actually used at a given table, plus the people involved at that table.
And I want to point out the PHB doesn't tell you "this is how you should compose a group, these are the roles you should fill, and this is the procedure in which you must play the game". So telling people "you don't get it, D&D is meant to be this thing, not what you're doing with it" seems like you're expecting people to play the game in a way they are never really instructed to do.
Well, that's where we run into problems. Take another game as an example. Hockey. To play hockey is to play a game organized and limited by the rules of hockey. You get rid of the ice and the skates, swap the puck for a ball and play on the street, suddenly you're playing street hockey, a different if closely related game. Get rid of the sticks and allow kicking, then make the ball bigger and bouncy, and suddenly you're playing football (soccer) instead of street hockey. The difference between football (soccer) and hockey is the rules. The difference between D&D and chess is the rules. If you bust out a chess set and start RPing the pieces, that doesn't make chess an RPG, but you're also clearly not playing chess.

D&D is a game and it has rules. Playing the game as laid out by the rules is what makes it a game of D&D. You can house rule things, ignore things, add in, etc. But that changes the game. It's now D&D minus these things and these other things added in. That's the table variation Matt's talking about in the video. And we run into trouble because we all shorthand to "D&D" instead of being more accurate and precise by saying "D&D with these house rules, with these kinds of players, and played in this style." And so we we have arguments about what D&D is or isn't and talk passed each other more often than not.

The game (unfortunately) does not explicitly say "you must have this class or that class". One of the many babies they threw out with the bathwater of 4E. But even a bad reading of the game will show it's a bad idea to go into an adventure without healing. The book does say things like this:

"The DUNGEONS & DRAGONS game consists of a group of characters embarking on an adventure that the Dungeon Master presents to them. Each character brings particular capabilities to the adventure in the form of ability scores and skills, class features, racial traits, equipment, and magic items. Every character is different, with various strengths and weaknesses, so the best party of adventurers is one in which the characters complement each other and cover the weaknesses of their companions. The adventurers must cooperate to successfully complete the adventure."

That it's a cooperative fantasy adventure game where adventurers do dangerous, life-threatening things, is fairly well spelled out. It also spells out the three pillars. Etc. And actually playing the game will reveal that without healing, whether through magic or healer's kits or potions, etc, your character is more likely to get hurt and die.
Also, overgeeked, I was just having a discussion the other day on the forums about someone who plays in all martial campaigns, and they assured me they were fine not having a healer. That's not been my experience at all, but he claimed it worked just fine.

Do they face the suggested number of encounters? Or even the suggested difficulty? Does their DM go out of their way not to use challenges that normally require magic to solve? Or give them access to other ways to achieve those ends?
I don't doubt them, but I'd want more info. At a guess if there's no healer or someone with medicine and a healer's kit, then there's likely house rules to make things easier and/or the DM simply doesn't press advantages during combat or is far more relaxed about challenging the PCs. Like defaulting to fewer combat and easier ones. Etc.
I have no idea, but it shows that the game can be very forgiving to different kinds of groups.
That's the benefit of having a DM that can tailor things. But that doesn't mean it's the default assumption of the game. It's simply one more example of table variation. That D&D can work that way (if fiddled with) doesn't mean that it's designed to work that way.
Which is probably why it's gotten it's "easy mode" reputation.
More than likely it's due to the game being dirty with healing, full recharge and hp recovery on a long rest, and most DMs not pushing for the designers assumed 6-8 encounters per adventuring day. So the PCs face off against far fewer monsters than the designers intended, so the resources they do have are more concentrated instead of spread out, and they have quick and easy access to replenishing those resources. So, yeah, easy mode.
 
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DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
I was just having a discussion the other day on the forums about someone who plays in all martial campaigns, and they assured me they were fine not having a healer.
FWIW I ran an all "monk" campaign (from 1st-8th) without a healing caster at all. Now, we did have one monk with the Healer feat, but that was it. I didn't change anything as far as how I ran it compared to my other 5E games. 🤷‍♂️

With the healer feat, short rests, and the options for healing features in the game, you really don't need a dedicated healer in 5E. It can certainly help, and IME most games still have one for that reason, but it isn't necessary.

Which is probably why it's gotten it's "easy mode" reputation.
For myself, this is not why I consider the default design of 5E "easy mode". It is easy mode because:

Beginning with maximum HP at 1st level.
You recover HP quickly through short and long rests.
There are lots of features which allow additional recovery of HP.
At 5th level there is a spell that literally will restore a PC to life.

There's a bit more, but those are the main reasons for myself. Fortunately, house-rules change that quickly.
 

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
FWIW I ran an all "monk" campaign (from 1st-8th) without a healing caster at all. Now, we did have one monk with the Healer feat, but that was it. I didn't change anything as far as how I ran it compared to my other 5E games. 🤷‍♂️

With the healer feat, short rests, and the options for healing features in the game, you really don't need a dedicated healer in 5E. It can certainly help, and IME most games still have one for that reason, but it isn't necessary.


For myself, this is not why I consider the default design of 5E "easy mode". It is easy mode because:

Beginning with maximum HP at 1st level.
You recover HP quickly through short and long rests.
There are lots of features which allow additional recovery of HP.
At 5th level there is a spell that literally will restore a PC to life.

There's a bit more, but those are the main reasons for myself. Fortunately, house-rules change that quickly.
I can't say I've ever played a game of D&D where people were made to roll for their first hit die. I guess this was the first house rule I ever encountered. It's kind of hard to be a Fighter with 3 hit points at 1st level is the prevailing thought there.

But hey I liked 4e, where you could easily start with 30 hit point and still get clobbered (klobbered?) by kobolds at level 1. I know that's what happened to my first Warlord.*

As for healing quickly, well, that's just a reaction to what happens when the party has no hit point. Nothing. Whatever they decide to do, it's not going to be continuing to adventure that day. So making sure people walk into fights with reasonably high hit points could be seen as a feature, not a bug.

Now, if you and your group like the games of yore with 1 hit point Wizards and a stack of extra character sheets on hand, more power to you, and I wish you all the best. But I had my fill of such things by the mid-90's and was happy to have a chance to have a chance to reach higher levels when I played, and to be able to use the more difficult monsters when I ran.

*As an aside, this is interesting for me to think about. 4e starts you off with the equivalent of a 3rd level character. Healing is prevalent, and the 2/encounter Healing Word and it's variants were very efficient heals in their own right. And yet, I got near death all the time, and in fact, I died more times in 4e than I ever have in 5e and Pathfinder put together. I wonder why that is...
 

overgeeked

B/X Known World
*As an aside, this is interesting for me to think about. 4e starts you off with the equivalent of a 3rd level character. Healing is prevalent, and the 2/encounter Healing Word and it's variants were very efficient heals in their own right. And yet, I got near death all the time, and in fact, I died more times in 4e than I ever have in 5e and Pathfinder put together. I wonder why that is...
I can't speak to Pathfinder, but in 4E your death saves aren't reset until you take a short rest. Everyone's doing a lot more damage (along with having a lot more hit points), you're likely having a lot more fights, and unless your 4E group was big on teamwork and synergies, PCs dropped a lot quicker.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
This sentiment only makes sense if you ignore that this isn't symmetrical risk; the person playing the scout is going to get all the risks the other PCs do, and an extra dose beside. Unless a player has a particular self-sacrificing streak, nothing about "making an adventurer" requires them to want to eat that extra dose.
As was said, no one is required to make a scout and no one is being forced to scout if they don't want to. But if they do go out, they absolutely should be subject to all the risks and rewards scouting entails. IMO, the entire process is pointless otherwise. If, on the other hand, you want scouting without danger, make sure your group is on board with that first.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
Then I still think its most likel a loser; the truth is, on the whole more opponents have a higher mobility than most PCs even accounting for magic, which can lead to a situation where all running away does is provide an opportunity for the pursuers to get an attack in every couple of rounds that the PCs aren't going to respond to. Anything a PC normally takes time to do to slow opponents takes up about as much time as it'll slow said opponents, and its hard to effectively use terrain that most of the time the opponents are going to know as well or better than you do.
Pretty much except doing something against the environment to create a complication doesn't slow the one running even though each complication can result in 5-10ft of difficult terrain things like lose 1d4*5 feet of move and/or deal some incidental damage to the one(s) giving chase. Players who want to run need to A: run early enough that it's not just the walking dead trying to kite monsters & B: make sure the monsters have reason to justify letting players escape. one or both of those is usually ignored
 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
I can't say I've ever played a game of D&D where people were made to roll for their first hit die. I guess this was the first house rule I ever encountered. It's kind of hard to be a Fighter with 3 hit points at 1st level is the prevailing thought there.
Well, I would be ok if people wanted to just do the average instead of rolling at 1st level.

Of course, IME you reach 2nd level during or at the end of the 1st session, and then get to add another hit die. So, your 3 hp fighter (really bad roll or no CON?) wouldn't have to make it too far before they got another d10.

But hey I liked 4e, where you could easily start with 30 hit point and still get clobbered (klobbered?) by kobolds at level 1. I know that's what happened to my first Warlord.*
I can't say for 4E since I never played it, but in 5E where a commoner has 4 hp starting out with 20-30 or more is ridiculous for me, but then I like the PCs starting out more common. ;)

As for healing quickly, well, that's just a reaction to what happens when the party has no hit point. Nothing. Whatever they decide to do, it's not going to be continuing to adventure that day. So making sure people walk into fights with reasonably high hit points could be seen as a feature, not a bug.
OK, the bold part doesn't make much sense to me...

But anyway, I don't know about your games, but when I DM the party has little say on when the "adventure" happens or the "adventuring day" is done. Otherwise, one option I've considered is (I believe more like 4E???) lowering HP but allowing people to have full HP for each encounter simply because with the abundance of healing available, 90%+ encounters have the party with max or near-max HP anyway.

Now, if you and your group like the games of yore with 1 hit point Wizards and a stack of extra character sheets on hand, more power to you, and I wish you all the best. But I had my fill of such things by the mid-90's and was happy to have a chance to have a chance to reach higher levels when I played, and to be able to use the more difficult monsters when I ran.
LOL, no, but even in the 80's and 90's that wasn't the case typically. I'm amazed when I see this reaction because although PC death happened in AD&D, it usually wasn't at level 1 IME. Anyway, like I said before, advancement in 5E is so rapid for the first few levels, you get more HD and HP quickly...

4e starts you off with the equivalent of a 3rd level character.
Frankly, a number of groups begin 5E at 3rd level anyway. Why? Because you have 3HD of hit points, always have your subclass chosen, and the first levels go by so quickly a lot of people wonder "why bother?".

Two weeks ago (tomorrow) we started a new campaign and surprise surprise we made 2nd level by the end of one session. Tomorrow we are playing session 2, and most likely will be 3rd level before the day is over. It makes it almost pointless to bother playing those levels.

As a consequence, for my own game (and 5E mod) I changed the XP table around so you need 1000 xp for 2nd level, 3000 for 3rd, 6000 for 4th, and so on (it follows the d20 SW table). The good part of that is also advance after 7th level will be faster than RAW, encouraging players to keep playing those PCs because they won't have to wait (or earn) as much before the next level.
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
As was said, no one is required to make a scout and no one is being forced to scout if they don't want to. But if they do go out, they absolutely should be subject to all the risks and rewards scouting entails. IMO, the entire process is pointless otherwise. If, on the other hand, you want scouting without danger, make sure your group is on board with that first.

I'm just saying that if you make scouting significantly dangerous, then you shouldn't be surprised no one wants to do it. I mean, why would they? If they wanted to take danger all by themself, why be with a group in the first place?
 

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