D&D 5E (2024) The Problem with Treantmonk's Hunter's Mark

[Lord Twig]

Treantmonk has a new video series on fixing the 2024 Ranger which, to be clear, I am enjoying. I don't agree with a lot of the changes, but I respect the thought put into them and think that some of his suggestions are very good.

His Hunter's Mark spell, however, is very bad. Here it is:

Hunter’s Mark​

Level 1 Divination (Ranger)
Casting Time: Bonus Action
Range: 150 feet
Components: S
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 hour
You magically mark one creature within range as your quarry. Until the spell ends, you deal an extra 1d6 Force damage to the target whenever you hit it with an attack roll. For the duration, you see the target if they have the Invisible condition as if they were visible. You also have Advantage on any Wisdom (Survival) check you make to find them. If the target drops to 0 Hit Points before this spell ends, you can take a Bonus Action to move the mark to a new creature you can see within range.


Using a Higher-Level Spell Slot. If you cast this spell using a level 3+ spell slot, the spell doesn’t require Concentration and the duration becomes 8 hours. If you use a level 5 spell slot, the spell lasts until you complete a Long Rest.

You can find the original source here.

So why is it bad? Because it isn't a fix for the Ranger. It is a buff for everyone, and the Ranger suffers for it.

One of Treantmonk's main criticisms of the Ranger is that it lacks a clear identity, and he makes some changes to rectify it. One of the ways he does this is to make the Ranger spells more powerful, the problem is that Hunter's Mark doesn't just belong to the Ranger. Unfortunately, WotC decided to also give it to the Vengence Paladin, one of the strongest class/subclass combos in the game, as one of their automatic spells (this was a terrible thing to do, but it was done back in 2014, so there is probably no fixing it). They also made it available to ANYONE that takes the Fey Touched feat. This means that your Vengence Paladin, Eldritch Knight Fighter, Pact of the Blade Warlock, Valor Bard, Bladesinger Wizard, etc., etc. can take the Fey Touched feat and then spend at 3rd level spell slot to get +1d6 to every attack for the next 8 hours CONCENTRATION FREE! Yay?

I understand the problem with requiring Concentration on Hunter's Mark, but the correct place to fix this is in the Ranger class features (and probably a pretty high level feature). Not in the spell that just anyone can take and get the benefit of.

 

[Distracted DM]

I can see the criticism, but some of 5e24's changes really threw me so I'm not sure what to make of an extra +1d6 damage for an investment of a feat etc. For example, 5e24's Vicious Weapon adds a flat 2d6 extra damage, and it isn't attunement. So they're not afraid of adding extra damage onto martials attacks. So maybe treantmonk knew what he was doing, and just understood 5e24's direction?

 

[Horwath]

I agree that Conc removing tied with spell level is a bad idea.
And I agree that it needs to be ranger's class ability, but not a high level feature.
levels 5-7 are good mark(heh) for removing Conc tag from Hunter's mark.

Level 13: casting HM and moving it is now Free action. once on your Turn.

Level 20: HM damage improves to 3d6. d10 is simply awful.
any 1st level dip will give you more benefit than taking a CAPSTONE in your class.

 

[Deset Gled]

One of Treantmonk's main criticisms of the Ranger is that it lacks a clear identity, and he makes some changes to rectify it. One of the ways he does this is to make the Ranger spells more powerful, the problem is that Hunter's Mark doesn't just belong to the Ranger. Unfortunately, WotC decided to also give it to the Vengence Paladin, one of the strongest class/subclass combos in the game, as one of their automatic spells (this was a terrible thing to do, but it was done back in 2014, so there is probably no fixing it). They also made it available to ANYONE that takes the Fey Touched feat. This means that your Vengence Paladin, Eldritch Knight Fighter, Pact of the Blade Warlock, Valor Bard, Bladesinger Wizard, etc., etc. can take the Fey Touched feat and then spend at 3rd level spell slot to get +1d6 to every attack for the next 8 hours CONCENTRATION FREE! Yay?

If this is the problem, isn't the trivial solution to treat Treantmonk's version of Hunter's Mark and WotC's version of Hunter's Mark as different spells? Use the former for the Ranger, the latter for anything else.

You're already allowing custom content. This doesn't seem like a terribly difficult customization to make if it bothers you.

 

[Aurel Guthrie]

I agree that Conc removing tied with spell level is a bad idea.
And I agree that it needs to be ranger's class ability, but not a high level feature.
levels 5-7 are good mark(heh) for removing Conc tag from Hunter's mark.

Level 13: casting HM and moving it is now Free action. once on your Turn.

Level 20: HM damage improves to 3d6. d10 is simply awful.
any 1st level dip will give you more benefit than taking a CAPSTONE in your class.

This is very similar to what I do with my players. Level 5 casting Hunter's Mark using Favored Enemy doesn't require concentration. Level 13 the damage increases to 2d6 and you can move it as a free action if cast using favored enemy. I'm stealing that lvl 20 capstone

I also allow at level 13 to be able to cast Hunter's Mark on a creature through their tracks. So say the ranger finds a creature's footprints, they can cast Hunter's Mark so then they get advantage on checks to find it, and then they can start the fight with hunter's mark already up so they get to use their first bonus action for something else.

 

[Lord Twig]

I can see the criticism, but some of 5e24's changes really threw me so I'm not sure what to make of an extra +1d6 damage for an investment of a feat etc. For example, 5e24's Vicious Weapon adds a flat 2d6 extra damage, and it isn't attunement. So they're not afraid of adding extra damage onto martials attacks. So maybe treantmonk knew what he was doing, and just understood 5e24's direction?

If it was just increasing power (which I don't think is needed) sure. But the problem is that the goal was to improve the Ranger, not just increase the general power of everyone.

I agree that Conc removing tied with spell level is a bad idea.
And I agree that it needs to be ranger's class ability, but not a high level feature.
levels 5-7 are good mark(heh) for removing Conc tag from Hunter's mark.

Level 13: casting HM and moving it is now Free action. once on your Turn.

Level 20: HM damage improves to 3d6. d10 is simply awful.
any 1st level dip will give you more benefit than taking a CAPSTONE in your class.

My own house rules were to allow HM to be moved once when you take the Attack action at 13th level. Then concentration free at 17th level. Then I borrowed Treantmonks Capstone of allowing the Ranger to turn any hit into a Crit once per turn and limited to Wisdom mod times per day. This is all added to they usual benefits at 13th, 17th, and 20th. Oh, I also said that the Ranger's free Hunter's Marks are also upcast for free at level 9 (3rd level slot) and 17 (5th level slot).

If this is the problem, isn't the trivial solution to treat Treantmonk's version of Hunter's Mark and WotC's version of Hunter's Mark as different spells? Use the former for the Ranger, the latter for anything else.

You're already allowing custom content. This doesn't seem like a terribly difficult customization to make if it bothers you.

I'll just use my own version. I just wanted to discuss his version with others and see if they saw the same problem I did or if other people thought I was completely off base. I don't have a lot of people to talk about this with at home.

 

[Horwath]

This is very similar to what I do with my players. Level 5 casting Hunter's Mark using Favored Enemy doesn't require concentration. Level 13 the damage increases to 2d6 and you can move it as a free action if cast using favored enemy. I'm stealing that lvl 20 capstone

I also allow at level 13 to be able to cast Hunter's Mark on a creature through their tracks. So say the ranger finds a creature's footprints, they can cast Hunter's Mark so then they get advantage on checks to find it, and then they can start the fight with hunter's mark already up so they get to use their first bonus action for something else.

I like the idea of casting HM through tracks, but why level 13?

it's really a ribbon feature then. 5th level would also be fine.
It will not come up that often and even if it does, it rewards using Survival, and exploration pillar needs more utility in this game.

 

[Horwath]

If it was just increasing power (which I don't think is needed) sure. But the problem is that the goal was to improve the Ranger, not just increase the general power of everyone.

My own house rules were to allow HM to be moved once when you take the Attack action at 13th level. Then concentration free at 17th level. Then I borrowed Treantmonks Capstone of allowing the Ranger to turn any hit into a Crit once per turn and limited to Wisdom mod times per day. This is all added to they usual benefits at 13th, 17th, and 20th. Oh, I also said that the Ranger's free Hunter's Marks are also upcast for free at level 9 (3rd level slot) and 17 (5th level slot).

I'll just use my own version. I just wanted to discuss his version with others and see if they saw the same problem I did or if other people thought I was completely off base. I don't have a lot of people to talk about this with at home.

17th level is simply too little to late for a feature that adds +1d6 damage to an attack.
paladins get +1d8 to every attack, no limited resource cost, no action cost to set up. You just get it.

so with less damage, Bonus action cost set up and limited resource pool, even with bonuses to skill checks, levels 5-7 seems like a nice target.
maybe 6th level as 5th level already has Extra attack and 2nd level spells, and 7th level subclass features are also not that good in general.

 

[Valetudo]

The problem with hunters Mark is it should not be a spell in the first place. It should be a class feature that you can use a number of times per day, doesn't use concentration, and scales with class level. It should scale similar to the bards feature eventually ending up as a d12.

 

[Horwath]

The problem with hunters Mark is it should not be a spell in the first place. It should be a class feature that you can use a number of times per day, doesn't use concentration, and scales with class level. It should scale similar to the bards feature eventually ending up as a d12.

it should not be in limited use then.

Here is a rework:

Call it Ranger's Focus:
once on your turn as a Bonus action or as a part of Attack action, you can focus your primal senses on one target that you can sense as your prey: hear, see or smell, or other senses.
You have advantage on Perception, Survival and Insight checks vs your prey.
once on your turn you deal extra 1d4 damage to your prey.
Focus lasts until the end of your next Long rest or until you select new target as prey
at level 5, damage increases to +1d6
at level 11, damage increases to +2d6
at level 17, damage increases to +3d6

at 7th level you can have 2 targets as prey
at 13th level you can have 3 targets as prey
at 19th level you can have 4 targets as prey

at 9th level you can have your target as prey for 1 week
at 15th level you can have your target as prey until your or your mark dies or you release it or have more marks that you can have at the same time.

20th level: steal Treantmonks idea
5×per long rest, turn one hit into a crit.
No Wis bonus nonsense, game has enough min-maxing.