D&D 5E (2024) The Problem with Treantmonk's Hunter's Mark

[Charlaquin]

I like the idea of casting HM through tracks, but why level 13?

it's really a ribbon feature then. 5th level would also be fine.
It will not come up that often and even if it does, it rewards using Survival, and exploration pillar needs more utility in this game.

I really like the idea of a ranger casting Hunter’s Mark through a target’s tracks, and I agree 5th level would be fine. Frankly, I think it would be fine even at 1st level.

 

[Lord Twig]

I think everyone is just assuming the Ranger is bad at level 11 and aren't doing the math. The Paladin gets +1d8 "on every attack". That is 2 for a great weapon fighter, which is almost universally agreed to be the biggest damage dealer. So that is an average of +9 damage if both hit, and it is only for melee attacks.

A Beast Master Ranger gets an extra Animal Companion attack that does 1d8+5 (with 16 Wisdom), which is an average of 9.5 on a hit. Plus Hunter's Mark if they have it up (and with my house rules, they will).

A Fey Wanderer gets Fey Renforcements with gives them a Fey Spirit that deals 2d6+6, with Advantage for Fuming, for 13 damage on a hit. That is a bit more, but requires a round to set up. Plus another +1 damage per round for the increased (and much maligned) Dreadful Strikes. After four rounds that is 42 damage vs. the Paladins 36, and that is assuming the Paladin was actually able to use it on the first round and didn't miss a round of attacks closing or using throwing weapons which don't get the bonus.

A Gloom Stalker's Dreadful Strike (Same name? Almost) does an extra 2 damage at level 11 on average, and they can either get an extra attack against another creature (either 2d6+5 for a two-handed weapon for 12 damage or 1d6+5 for a light weapon for 8.5) or they can debuff all creatures in a 10' emanation from his primary target with Fear. So even with a light weapon that is an average of 10.5 damage or they use the fear effect. It's not single target damage, but I know my group rarely only has one opponent to fight.

A Hunter... Okay, the Hunter sucks. It is just 3.5 damage to a creature you are not focusing on. There is no attack roll or save, but it still sucks.

The new Winter Walker gets a Reaction to Stun a creature that hits them. Which they can do a number of times a day equal to their Wisdom. This is an awesome ability that is hard to put absolute numbers on, but it can doom an enemy if it sticks as the rest of the party murders them while they can't move with Advantage on every attack against them.

So yeah. You have to be careful about adding more damage to the Ranger. They really aren't that far behind (except the Hunter). The only way the Paladin stays ahead is by burning through spell slots to keep smiting. Rangers have more interesting things they can do with their spells in my humble opinion.

 

[Horwath]

I really like the idea of a ranger casting Hunter’s Mark through a target’s tracks, and I agree 5th level would be fine. Frankly, I think it would be fine even at 1st level.

maybe 3rd level so everyone can poach it(heh) as a one level dip.

 

[Charlaquin]

maybe 3rd level so everyone can poach it(heh) as a one level dip.

Good point!

 

[Lord Twig]

it should not be in limited use then.

Here is a rework:

Call it Ranger's Focus:
once on your turn as a Bonus action or as a part of Attack action, you can focus your primal senses on one target that you can sense as your prey: hear, see or smell, or other senses.
You have advantage on Perception, Survival and Insight checks vs your prey.
once on your turn you deal extra 1d4 damage to your prey.
Focus lasts until the end of your next Long rest or until you select new target as prey
at level 5, damage increases to +1d6
at level 11, damage increases to +2d6
at level 17, damage increases to +3d6

at 7th level you can have 2 targets as prey
at 13th level you can have 3 targets as prey
at 19th level you can have 4 targets as prey

at 9th level you can have your target as prey for 1 week
at 15th level you can have your target as prey until your or your mark dies or you release it or have more marks that you can have at the same time.

20th level: steal Treantmonks idea
5×per long rest, turn one hit into a crit.
No Wis bonus nonsense, game has enough min-maxing.

At first glance, and without doing any math, I honestly think this would make the Ranger the hands-down highest damage dealer in the game.

 

[Minigiant]

The mistake many make is they are treating a 1st level spell as your goto passed level 9.

In tier 3, Hunters Mark is your backup spell.

 

[Horwath]

The mistake many make is they are treating a 1st level spell as your goto passed level 9.

In tier 3, Hunters Mark is your backup spell.

it's not a backup spell if later class features and subclass features spend "class points" on using HM.

you either have HM on 24/7 or you waste your "class points".
basically you can throw away your class features that you gain later or you can forget any spell with Cons tag.

 

[Tigris]

I think everyone is just assuming the Ranger is bad at level 11 and aren't doing the math. The Paladin gets +1d8 "on every attack". That is 2 for a great weapon fighter, which is almost universally agreed to be the biggest damage dealer. So that is an average of +9 damage if both hit, and it is only for melee attacks.

A Beast Master Ranger gets an extra Animal Companion attack that does 1d8+5 (with 16 Wisdom), which is an average of 9.5 on a hit. Plus Hunter's Mark if they have it up (and with my house rules, they will).

A Fey Wanderer gets Fey Renforcements with gives them a Fey Spirit that deals 2d6+6, with Advantage for Fuming, for 13 damage on a hit. That is a bit more, but requires a round to set up. Plus another +1 damage per round for the increased (and much maligned) Dreadful Strikes. After four rounds that is 42 damage vs. the Paladins 36, and that is assuming the Paladin was actually able to use it on the first round and didn't miss a round of attacks closing or using throwing weapons which don't get the bonus.

A Gloom Stalker's Dreadful Strike (Same name? Almost) does an extra 2 damage at level 11 on average, and they can either get an extra attack against another creature (either 2d6+5 for a two-handed weapon for 12 damage or 1d6+5 for a light weapon for 8.5) or they can debuff all creatures in a 10' emanation from his primary target with Fear. So even with a light weapon that is an average of 10.5 damage or they use the fear effect. It's not single target damage, but I know my group rarely only has one opponent to fight.

A Hunter... Okay, the Hunter sucks. It is just 3.5 damage to a creature you are not focusing on. There is no attack roll or save, but it still sucks.

The new Winter Walker gets a Reaction to Stun a creature that hits them. Which they can do a number of times a day equal to their Wisdom. This is an awesome ability that is hard to put absolute numbers on, but it can doom an enemy if it sticks as the rest of the party murders them while they can't move with Advantage on every attack against them.

So yeah. You have to be careful about adding more damage to the Ranger. They really aren't that far behind (except the Hunter). The only way the Paladin stays ahead is by burning through spell slots to keep smiting. Rangers have more interesting things they can do with their spells in my humble opinion.

Yes exactly. The "problem" is that the damage increase is in the subclass, and tgus harder to see, and well the subclass must be done well. So if you have a weak subclass like hunter you miss out a lot.


The only thing about the new ranger which I think is bad is the capstone.


The 24 hunter is a clear impeovement over 14 one. Yes part of that already was done by tashas, but it makes sense that when the class was already reworked thst the othet changes are smaller.

You get bonus casts of hunters mark and at high level it gets improvements,to make it worth still using but if you get more use out of another spell thats fine! Even if you overwright hunters mark it was just a free casting.


New Ranger did overall got more power: They gets ritual casting, 2 more expertise, weapon mastery, more flexible spell preparation, more movement speed and more.


The "you cant do all at the same time" may be annoying, but that also means you have choices! If hunters mark is just up passive its no choice.


Its similar to the rune knight, they also have to do choiced in how to use bonus actions etc.

 

[Minigiant]

it's not a backup spell if later class features and subclass features spend "class points" on using HM.

you either have HM on 24/7 or you waste your "class points".
basically you can throw away your class features that you gain later or you can forget any spell with Cons tag.

Thats the mindset that misses the point.

You're not wasting anything by not casting Hunters Mark first.

You cast Hunter's Mark when your 3rd, 4th, or 5th level spell drops concentration or dies. Or when you run out of them.

Those features are to make casting Hunter's Mark not feel bad.

 

[Tigris]

it's not a backup spell if later class features and subclass features spend "class points" on using HM.

you either have HM on 24/7 or you waste your "class points".
basically you can throw away your class features that you gain later or you can forget any spell with Cons tag.

Level 13 and 17 class features are bonus class features on levels where you did not get a class feature before because you get higher level spells. And even the low level class feature with bonus uses just makes that you can use it (and lose concentration on it/ use another spell over it) with less regrets/ as a backup.


If you dont like hunters mark choose a subclass which is not dependant on it, not all are.


Only the capstone, which is bad I agree, is forcing you to use hunters mark, but almost no one ever gets level 20 anyway.