D&D General The purpose of deity stats in D&D.

[dave2008]

If I recall from Deities & Demigods, there are at least 2 pantheons (Egyptian "Atum" and one other) that had creator gods, that faded into the background after their work was done, and lead the way for the more relatable human-centric gods.

Atum isn't in Deities & Demigods that I recall (nor Supplement IV: Gods, Demi-gods & Heroes, for that matter), so I suspect you're thinking of Ptah. Even then, his being a creator deity is presented as being "according to legend" rather than anything declarative.

You mean this guy:

 

[Micah Sweet]

You mean this guy:

View attachment 387689

Also the patron god of 2e Spelljammer!

 

[James Gasik]

Also the patron god of 2e Spelljammer!

Which I always found odd, since Celestian has been traveling the spaceways before Spelljammer was a thing...

And even odder, that they decided Ptah would be worshiped by spacegoing Stone Giants, of all things!

 

[Alzrius]

Honestly, I liked the depiction of Ptah's church in Kenzer Co.'s Hackjammer, where everyone treats his clergy's insistence that he created the universe as a joke. Literally, there's a quote in there to the effect of, "We praise thee, O Ptah, creator of the universe...hey! I heard that! Who snickered?"

 

[Lanefan]

I have never had the gods in my games need human worship and find the idea quite sill actually. I mean they existing eons before humans so why would they need our worship!

They don't need our (as in, Humans') worship but they've gotta get it from somewhere. I do subscribe to the idea that (with a few exceptions) deities need worshippers to maintain their powers.

There's a great many worlds out there, populated by a great many lifeforms of which Humans are but one. The deities can probably draw worship in some form or other from all of 'em if they want.

 

[cranberry]

You mean this guy:

View attachment 387689

That's him, and he has stats! Let's kill him!

 

[pemerton]

I never really understood the narrative conceit behind the 4e version. It doesn't fit with any divine ascension I've ever heard of.

I thought you didn't hold with RPGs conforming to narrative conceits!

In any event, here is the relevant text from the 4e PHB (pp 174-5):

A divine spark ignites your soul, setting you on the path to apotheosis. . . .

Your flesh becomes more than mortal and partakes of the divine vigor enjoyed by the gods themselves. Your epic-level companions are fast, strong, and smart, but you have the spark of godhood that sets you ever so slightly above all mortals.

Deities from every plane eventually learn your name, your nature, and your goals. Some might monitor your progress to observe whether you possess the mettle of a true demigod, and a few could throw roadblocks in your path. It is in your hands to impress the lords of creation, or disappoint them.

If you survive, overcome all challenges put before you, and reach the heights of ability achieved by few mortals, you are worthy to ascend to the ranks of the divine. . . .

One or more gods might ask that you serve them as a probationary exarch while you work toward your own divine goals. You do not gain any additional abilities for accepting such a position, though you do gain access to a divine connection that might grant you information helpful for completing your quests. On the other hand, you might be required to perform tasks that delay your own goals, or even work at cross-purposes to your goals. No one said godhood would be easy, and acting as a free agent has its own problems as various astral beings take your measure. . . .

Divine Ascension: When you complete your final quest, your divine nature yearns to complete your apotheosis. Upon ordering your mortal affairs, the astral flame smoldering within you detonates, consuming all that remains of your mortal flesh.

The astral flame leaves behind a fledgling god, flush with the power only the truly divine can comprehend and wield. You ascend, blazing like the sunrise (or darkening the skies like an eclipse, if your inclinations run dark). Streaking into the Astral Sea, you are taken up into the realm of an established god who welcomes your strength. You join that god’s pantheon and take on an aspect of the god’s portfolio.

Soon enough, your transcendent senses discern mortal prayers directed at you.​

The origin/cause of the character's "divine spark" is left as to the imagination of the players. To me, the two most obvious possibilities are (i) inheritance, or (ii) a gift bestowed. But I can think of others too (eg drinking from a well or font of the divine), and I'm sure others have thought of other possibilities that haven't occurred to me.

 

[QuentinGeorge]

Pretty much all human mythologies have gods that act surprisingly human (even most if not all existing religions I would say)

Sort of. How falliable and human gods act is the defining change between the classical religions (BC - ie reco-Roman, Egyptian, Sumerian, Ancient Indian, Ancient Hebrew etc) and the post-antiquity faiths (AD, ie post-Exile Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Zoroastrianism, Manichaeism, Buddhism etc)

Most D&D religions seem to be trying to do the first category, but aren't particularly good at it, so end up with some weird version of the second category.

 

[Clint_L]

I don't see the category of "god" as having any defining feature other than "is worshipped." So it can include any power level, from unspeakably powerful entities to utterly powerless objects. But divinity is not a super power in itself; I'm not even sure how it would be defined in a meaningful sense.

 

[Upper_Krust]

I only know the movies, so for me it's just 15+ years.

Long time Thor fan, I have every issue of Thor up until 2014.

I'll admit, though, I did forget about Captain Marvel. Her powers are getting more toward the deity level.

Her Plot Armour is impressive, her Box Office...not so much.

Not at all. The story simply changes to something other than challenging deities directly.

...except that you have now constrained your options because you cannot challenge deities directly...whereas I opt to remove those constraints and thus my epic campaigns have no limits.

And sure, Avengers Endgame had everything nicely balanced to make for a good fight in the moment. However, fight opponents is not the role I see deities filling. Minions, maybe, but even they are immortal.

I am going to assume you have never read the original Infinity Gauntlet graphic novel (six-issue series); upon which the Infinity War/Endgame movies are 'loosely' based.

...anyway, in the original Story, Thanos with virtual Omnipotence freezes the heroes in time and defeats them in the first nanosecond of the battle. But he is convinced by Mephisto (the Devil) to vastly reduce his own power so that the heroes have a fractional chance of success...in order to impress Mistress Death. Thanos obliges by only using a single Infinity Stone which he claims gives the heroes a 0.05% chance of victory.

My point being Thanos had to risk being defeated to make things exciting/interesting.

Also, the way I see deities, their plots and plans usually span many millenia where played campaigns maybe span a few years. Hence, the deities mostly leave the day-to-day stuff to mortals to deal with, and that's where the PCs might come in handy.

No reason why they cannot have plots and plans spanning millenia. Just that mortals can impact those plans.

If immortals cannot be hurt by the machinations of mortals then your deities are just 'playing videogames with God Mode switched on' and all the efforts of mortals 'coming in handy' is a complete irrelevance because it won't change the status quo.

I'd rather be involved in campaigns where the actions of the heroes makes a difference.

Only if you see the deities as potential direct opponents in battle.

Exactly which is the option for exciting (epic tier) stories. A story can only be exciting if something is at risk. Your deities do not risk anything and therefore are an irrelevance to the narrative.

Me, I want there to always be a (much) bigger fish than the PCs or any other mortals can ever become within a typical campaign. That's the deities' role.

Reminds me of people who play videogames with "God Mode" switched on. No risk = no excitement.