D&D General The purpose of deity stats in D&D.

[Lanefan]

The campaign reaches its natural conclusion?

Perhaps; but both as long-term prospect and, later, short-term reality that seems self-defeating if it's a campaign people would still otherwise want to keep playing.

 

[Lanefan]

In BECMI there is the Barrier, the Dimensional Vortex and the Old Ones who supposedly reside beyond the 5th Dimension.
In 3.x there is the Far Realm, which represents the very edge of creation, the place that exists on the borders of conception, supposedly existing as both a spatial and temporal frontier as well as a planar one. This may be equated to the 5th Dimension of Mystara where the true horrors originate, and maybe not.
Then there is the Old World of 5e.

Where for me all those places would perhaps be between the mortal realms and those of the deities, instead of "beyond" the deities.

I have ideas in my head of how I'm to bring about all the above including some interesting theoretical write-ups on the Pandius site, but it is all messy and noise right now. Nothing is established.

So, once the PCs have accomplished

• the party goals they wish to pursue, think along the lines of APs/modules; and
• their individual character goals,

my idea is to have them explore the final mysteries of the creation.
At this point it will be about ascension, discovery, preservation, realisation, sacrifice...

Will we get there? I hope so.

Sounds good, if you can pull it off.

 

[Lanefan]

a) Which doesn't affect your players because it will never be them anyway because you limit their progression to Mid Tier (or thereabouts).

b) Which doesn't affect your gods because they don't have relatable physical forms and no one in your campaign is allowed powerful enough to interact with them anyway. Plus why would your deities care about admiration and respect when nothing mortals can do can impact or affect them?

Ah, but they do have physical forms - it's just that those physical forms are either immune or highly resistant to anything mortals can throw at them. And PCs in my games have directly interacted with deities on numerous occasions, in (provided the PCs collectively have more wisdom than a kitten) non-combative situations.

Another such interaction is coming soon in my game (spoilered in case any of my players wander by):

Spoiler

The one thing mortals can be very useful for when it comes to deity-vs-deity conflict is that they're "small" enough to go unnoticed until after they've done what they're doing. And so, sometimes deities will use them as operatives.

In the upcoming case the PCs will (if all goes well and the players are willing) be sent in as secret agents on a quick-strike mission to free an imprisoned deity while other deities and their associates make a lot of noise elsewhere as a distraction. To tell the whole story around this would take all day - this is a key make-or-break moment in a story arc 12+ years in the making - but suffice it to say that if successful the PCs will have made some very big changes to the universe without having anywhere near enough power to take on deities directly or even indirectly.

As for why the other deities don't just do it themselves: any deity trying to free the prisoner directly would be noticed and opposed. Ordinary mortals might not be noticed until after the prisoner is free, at which point a) the freed prisoner can take care of himself and b) the PCs will have him as a defender against any retribution.

Games work with minimalist treasure/loot, but I haven't seen any work (long term) without character advancement.

I would agree with you treasure acts as the random reward while advancement works as the predictable constant reward.

Character 'Advancement' in the real world typically does not let players fast forward time (unlike RPGs) so your Casino analogy; while applicable to "Random Treasure", does not fill the other half of the equation that is Character Advancement.

Not sure where fast-forwarding in time comes into this, unless you have it that advancement takes a long time to train into.

 

[dave2008]

They don't need our (as in, Humans') worship but they've gotta get it from somewhere. I do subscribe to the idea that (with a few exceptions) deities need worshippers to maintain their powers.

There's a great many worlds out there, populated by a great many lifeforms of which Humans are but one. The deities can probably draw worship in some form or other from all of 'em if they want.

No, god in my game existing without worship. just like demons, devils, and many others. The unique thing with gods, in my game, is that they can get additional power from worship. Among immortals, they are unique that way. However, they don't need worship and didn't have any type of worshipers for the vast majority pf their existence.

 

[dave2008]

That's him, and he has stats! Let's kill him!

Just because something has stats doesn't mean it can be killed

 

[dave2008]

Ah, but they do have physical forms - it's just that those physical forms are either immune or highly resistant to anything mortals can throw at them. And PCs in my games have directly interacted with deities on numerous occasions, in (provided the PCs collectively have more wisdom than a kitten) non-combative situations.

Your mistake seems to be PC = mortals. At the higher tiers PCs are no longer mortals themselves,. So i you want to keep playing then at some point you need god stats, because the PCs are gods

 

[Cordwainer Fish]

Just because something has stats doesn't mean it can be killed(.)

 

[Lanefan]

Just because something has stats doesn't mean it can be killed

Among those stats will be hit points. By D&D rules, run it out of hit points (while maybe also meeting some other conditions) and it's dead.

 

[Lanefan]

Your mistake seems to be PC = mortals.

Well, yes, they're mortal. I don't give PCs you-can't-die plot protection.

At the higher tiers PCs are no longer mortals themselves,. So i you want to keep playing then at some point you need god stats, because the PCs are gods

In 4e and 5e where there's no lingering penalty for death-and-revival no matter how many times you repeat that cycle, you have a point. It's a serious bug in those editions' designs, though, and greatly cheapens death as a loss condition over those editions where a death-revival cycle carried a long-term penalty (loss of a Con point in 0-1-2e).

 

[dave2008]

Among those stats will be hit points. By D&D rules, run it out of hit points (while maybe also meeting some other conditions) and it's dead.

Sure, but with gods it is not that simple. Though I was being a bit cheeky. I was referring to comments I get when I post god stats and they are outside the capability of mortal pcs. The real statement should be:

"Just because it has stats doesn't mean you can kill it."

Gods still haves stats, they are just beyond the capabilities if what mortals can handle.