D&D General The purpose of deity stats in D&D.

[Upper_Krust]

Ah, but they do have physical forms - it's just that those physical forms are either immune or highly resistant to anything mortals can throw at them.

Seems like a back-peddle.

They went from un-interactable to now "highly resistant".

Is that highly resistant in the same way a Tarrasque would be to Low-level characters?

And PCs in my games have directly interacted with deities on numerous occasions, in (provided the PCs collectively have more wisdom than a kitten) non-combative situations.

Another such interaction is coming soon in my game (spoilered in case any of my players wander by):

Spoiler

The one thing mortals can be very useful for when it comes to deity-vs-deity conflict is that they're "small" enough to go unnoticed until after they've done what they're doing. And so, sometimes deities will use them as operatives.

In the upcoming case the PCs will (if all goes well and the players are willing) be sent in as secret agents on a quick-strike mission to free an imprisoned deity while other deities and their associates make a lot of noise elsewhere as a distraction. To tell the whole story around this would take all day - this is a key make-or-break moment in a story arc 12+ years in the making - but suffice it to say that if successful the PCs will have made some very big changes to the universe without having anywhere near enough power to take on deities directly or even indirectly.

As for why the other deities don't just do it themselves: any deity trying to free the prisoner directly would be noticed and opposed. Ordinary mortals might not be noticed until after the prisoner is free, at which point a) the freed prisoner can take care of himself and b) the PCs will have him as a defender against any retribution.

Okay so now you are saying that mortals can un-imprison a deity that was (presumably) imprisoned by another deity. Ergo the mortals can 'undo' the actions of a deity. Therefore there is interaction between mortals and gods.

Not sure where fast-forwarding in time comes into this, unless you have it that advancement takes a long time to train into.

My point was in an RPG the acquisition of Loot and Experience parallel each other (in terms of time frame).

In the real world Gambling takes very little time and effort, whereas personal advancement (studying, training, learning) takes considerable time and effort.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Yes, the purpose of giving them stats is so that Players can Kill them.

Absolutely. It means they are interact-able characters within the game.

Now let me go out and kill Set and I'll tell you how it felt after I do so (saying we don't all die in the process).

The question is not can you kill a God with stats; but rather how and what is the journey to get into a position to even attempt to kill one?

Given that 5e is capped at 20th-level, even the best tooled mortal party will probably not defeat even a Demigod in their Divine Realm. Set is probably an Intermediate or Greater God. So that means the heroes will need to be at least Demigods or better - otherwise it will be a squash.

So the first question is how and how long will it take your PCs even get to the rank of Demigod to be in a position to even think of challenging an immortal as powerful as Set.

Also don't fall into the trap of assuming the deity will just stand alone against the PCs. Set would likely have bodyguards on par with Lesser Gods. He would have armies of thousands if not millions of beings as capable as Level 20 characters. While its something of a D&D trope that these encounters always play out in convenient-to-handle skirmishes the more practical reality is that Invaders will be vastly outnumbered, under constant assault, the defenders will be well prepared, you won't just be able to teleport into Set's bedchamber while he's taking a nap and bop him on his Ass...or is it Donkey head.

The idea that just because a deity has stats it somehow becomes a pushover is a ludicrous fallacy.

 

[GreyLord]

Absolutely. It means they are interact-able characters within the game.



The question is not can you kill a God with stats; but rather how and what is the journey to get into a position to even attempt to kill one?

Given that 5e is capped at 20th-level, even the best tooled mortal party will probably not defeat even a Demigod in their Divine Realm. Set is probably an Intermediate or Greater God. So that means the heroes will need to be at least Demigods or better - otherwise it will be a squash.

So the first question is how and how long will it take your PCs even get to the rank of Demigod to be in a position to even think of challenging an immortal as powerful as Set.

Also don't fall into the trap of assuming the deity will just stand alone against the PCs. Set would likely have bodyguards on par with Lesser Gods. He would have armies of thousands if not millions of beings as capable as Level 20 characters. While its something of a D&D trope that these encounters always play out in convenient-to-handle skirmishes the more practical reality is that Invaders will be vastly outnumbered, under constant assault, the defenders will be well prepared, you won't just be able to teleport into Set's bedchamber while he's taking a nap and bop him on his Ass...or is it Donkey head.

The idea that just because a deity has stats it somehow becomes a pushover is a ludicrous fallacy.

2000 Epic Boons is how long...

And success isn't guaranteed. (Maybe should have waited till 10K epic boons).

 

[jasper]

the day the book hit our table, is the day some players wanted a 19 in their str. To go with author intent it was to provide a base power level of the gawds.
No, we know better now, it so we can kill Thor and take his hammer.

 

[Upper_Krust]

2000 Epic Boons is how long...

What are you defeating to get the necessary 60 million XP (388 Tarrasques maybe? ) and how long will it take?

And success isn't guaranteed. (Maybe should have waited till 10K epic boons).

Well exactly, most epic boons do not stack and the ones that do won't stop Set giving you a slap.

 

[Upper_Krust]

No, we know better now, it so we can kill Thor and take his hammer.

Nothing wrong with that as long as Thor gets to fight back and he'll fold Level 20 characters like a deck chair on the beach.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

Were the MCU to use my idea of deities Thanos wouldn't hold a candle to any of 'em. He's just a very high-level mortal, and bleeds when you cut him.

If the Infinity Stones had their own sentience and weren't so controllable by others they'd be more like actual deities in terms of their power levels.

That's a great approach too, but I think both are enjoyable in their own flavour of campaign.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Well, yes it does, in that if the deities appear to be ultimately defeatable by mortals - and if it has stats, it can be defeated - then a) someone in the setting will almost certainly have already done it at some point (the PCs are by no means the only adventurers out there) and b) the deities will quickly lose the respect and admiration of those who might otherwise adminre and worship them.
).

I don't think that follows at all. Real world people have people respecting and admiring them even though they are all mortal. Why would it be so different for gods, who are actually really, really hard to kill and have enormous powers?

And adventurers that can kill gods aren't that common. On their way to get that power, they likely gained admiration and worship as well (or, be feared). I agree that if it's possible, it probably already happened. But isn't that also part of several settings and real world mythologies, how some hero gained godhood by ursupring a god?
Heck, isn't one common origin story about Asmodeus in D&D that he was some kind of angel or exarch, betrayed and killed his god, and ascended to godhood? Angels aren't "mere mortals", but Angels have have been killable by adventurers in pretty much any setting, so if mortals can kill angels, and angels can kill gods, maybe mortals can also kill angels.

In the end, it's a pure setting decision what you allow or not allow.

Though of course, having stats for gods doesn't mean they can be actually killed. You just give them a stat called "Immortal Deity": "If reduced to 0 hit points, they immediatey regain all hit points." or "Divine Resistance: A god takes no damage from attacks and spells from creatures without the Deity subtype, and succeeds all saving throws against spells from non-Deities" or whatever. Then you can have gods and demigods killing each other (definitely a thing in some pantheons), but no mortals killing them.

I guess stats can also have other purposes - like figuring out what can a deity actually do? How likely is it for them to know stuff? What kind of lies can Thor get away with? What could Asmodeus or Loki get away with? Would Pelor see through a ruse by the Rogue? Could a Bard's brilliant performance catch Thor's full attention? Can the Ranger sneak up on the Raven Queen? Can the Thief steal fire from the gods?

 

[Divine2021]

Not including Supplement IV Gods, Demigods, and Heroes was a super lame choice.

 

[Remathilis]

Depends on you mean by "conventional weapons". Pretty nebulous term in a fantasy world.

Non artifacts or other things mortals can craft.