D&D General The purpose of deity stats in D&D.

[Upper_Krust]

You can have all sorts of cool interactions with a deity without said interactions involving any attempt to slay said deity.

I agree you could have 'cool interactions' but you cannot have exciting ones if one side risks nothing.

And yes, I can see the DM-side temptation to use deities as opponents when the PCs get to high enough level that there's no meaningful challenges left to them except deities.

Exactly. Its arguably more of a necessity than a temptation.

The solution there is to not let the PCs ever get that powerful.

Then why have such a strong opinion on high/epic tier gaming when YOU never play it and do not allow it at your table?

Having stats for deities in no way affects your game (Low/Mid Tier play) one iota...yet denying stats for deities does impact epic tier (and higher) play.

So your objections seem completely illogical.

Depending on edition, the power grade between levels was steeper or flatter, with 3.xe being the steepest. I'd rather it be on the flatter side.

The Leveling System. Its carrot and stick. Risk and reward.

Adventurers RISK their lives for REWARD; and given that treasure is largely random, the main reward is always Experience and Leveling Up.

 

[Lanefan]

Her Plot Armour is impressive, her Box Office...not so much.

Which is kinda sad, really.

...except that you have now constrained your options because you cannot challenge deities directly...whereas I opt to remove those constraints and thus my epic campaigns have no limits.



I am going to assume you have never read the original Infinity Gauntlet graphic novel (six-issue series); upon which the Infinity War/Endgame movies are 'loosely' based.

...anyway, in the original Story, Thanos with virtual Omnipotence freezes the heroes in time and defeats them in the first nanosecond of the battle. But he is convinced by Mephisto (the Devil) to vastly reduce his own power so that the heroes have a fractional chance of success...in order to impress Mistress Death. Thanos obliges by only using a single Infinity Stone which he claims gives the heroes a 0.05% chance of victory.

My point being Thanos had to risk being defeated to make things exciting/interesting.

Correct, I've never read those (the last time I even looked at a comic book was probably about 1972 and I've no idea which one it might have been at the time - probably Archie and Jughead ).

No reason why they cannot have plots and plans spanning millenia. Just that mortals can impact those plans.

If immortals cannot be hurt by the machinations of mortals then your deities are just 'playing videogames with God Mode switched on' and all the efforts of mortals 'coming in handy' is a complete irrelevance because it won't change the status quo.

I'd rather be involved in campaigns where the actions of the heroes makes a difference.

The actions of the PCs (I don't categorize them as heroes as many of them are anything but) do make a difference to those around them. But I also want to keep them as being a part of their own world; and if they're taking on deities and reshaping their universe then their home world has probably become somewhat irrelevant other than as a home base. (going back to the MCU - the only reason Earth remains relevant is that, far too conveniently IMO, so many of the Infinity Stones either reside or pass through here)

Exactly which is the option for exciting (epic tier) stories. A story can only be exciting if something is at risk. Your deities do not risk anything and therefore are an irrelevance to the narrative.

Reminds me of people who play videogames with "God Mode" switched on. No risk = no excitement.

So what's your "ultimate bigger fish" if not the deities? What's out there that the PCs can't hope to defeat no matter what they do?

Because if there's no ultimate bigger fish, sooner or later it's inevitable you'll hit the point of no risk - and thus no excitement.

 

[Lanefan]

I agree you could have 'cool interactions' but you cannot have exciting ones if one side risks nothing.



Exactly. Its arguably more of a necessity than a temptation.



Then why have such a strong opinion on high/epic tier gaming when YOU never play it and do not allow it at your table?

Having stats for deities in no way affects your game (Low/Mid Tier play) one iota...yet denying stats for deities does impact epic tier (and higher) play.

Well, yes it does, in that if the deities appear to be ultimately defeatable by mortals - and if it has stats, it can be defeated - then a) someone in the setting will almost certainly have already done it at some point (the PCs are by no means the only adventurers out there) and b) the deities will quickly lose the respect and admiration of those who might otherwise adminre and worship them.

The Leveling System. Its carrot and stick. Risk and reward.

Adventurers RISK their lives for REWARD; and given that treasure is largely random, the main reward is always Experience and Leveling Up.

The bolded is a sentiment I try my best to fight against. The main in-game reward is treasure, the main at-table reward is the fun of playing, and in either case I see levelling-up as no more than a pleasant side effect of play rather than the main reason to keep playing.

And the randomness of treasure actually makes it better as a reward than something more predictable. Intermittent unpredictable rewards are what keeps 'em coming back for more, as casinos figured out ages ago.

Advancement in my games is, by WotC-era standards, very slow; in part so I can keep the campaign going for 10+ years without having to worry about character levels getting high enough that the system falls apart (and every edition hits this problem at some point).

 

[pemerton]

So what's your "ultimate bigger fish" if not the deities? What's out there that the PCs can't hope to defeat no matter what they do?

Because if there's no ultimate bigger fish, sooner or later it's inevitable you'll hit the point of no risk - and thus no excitement.

The campaign reaches its natural conclusion?

 

[AnotherGuy]

So what's your "ultimate bigger fish" if not the deities? What's out there that the PCs can't hope to defeat no matter what they do?

Because if there's no ultimate bigger fish, sooner or later it's inevitable you'll hit the point of no risk - and thus no excitement.

In BECMI there is the Barrier, the Dimensional Vortex and the Old Ones who supposedly reside beyond the 5th Dimension.
In 3.x there is the Far Realm, which represents the very edge of creation, the place that exists on the borders of conception, supposedly existing as both a spatial and temporal frontier as well as a planar one. This may be equated to the 5th Dimension of Mystara where the true horrors originate, and maybe not.
Then there is the Old World of 5e.
I have ideas in my head of how I'm to bring about all the above including some interesting theoretical write-ups on the Pandius site, but it is all messy and noise right now. Nothing is established.

So, once the PCs have accomplished

• the party goals they wish to pursue, think along the lines of APs/modules; and
• their individual character goals,

my idea is to have them explore the final mysteries of the creation.
At this point it will be about ascension, discovery, preservation, realisation, sacrifice...

Will we get there? I hope so.

 

[Bedrockgames]

This thread is proving very interesting. My players just allied with a group of immortals to kill the head god of the setting. We shall see how it goes

 

[Upper_Krust]

Which is kinda sad, really.

I actually own a bunch of Ms. Marvel comics (she wasn't always "Captain" Marvel) and while I like the character, I don't think what made her unique (for those in the know) made her especially palatable as a modern heroine for the MCU and legions of young girls - which was presumably Disney's plan (so desperate were they for their own Wonder Woman), so they nerfed all her flaws and struggles and as a consequence killed her as an interesting character. But in removing her flaws they fell into the Mary Sue trap.

Personally I don't see how Captain Marvel movies could work for both inspiring young girls AND as an interesting movie for adults. I suspect Disney went with the former and didn't do enough to excite adult audiences.

Once a character has no flaws and risks nothing it becomes unrelateable and irrelevant - much like you want your deities unrelateable and (largely) irrelevant.

Correct, I've never read those (the last time I even looked at a comic book was probably about 1972 and I've no idea which one it might have been at the time - probably Archie and Jughead ).

The actions of the PCs (I don't categorize them as heroes as many of them are anything but) do make a difference to those around them. But I also want to keep them as being a part of their own world; and if they're taking on deities and reshaping their universe then their home world has probably become somewhat irrelevant other than as a home base.

Yes but my point was that you said the PCs could be "Useful to the Gods" when the reality of your distant immortals is that nothing the PCs do can affect them on any level. So in your campaign the Gods are effectively irrelevant.

(going back to the MCU - the only reason Earth remains relevant is that, far too conveniently IMO, so many of the Infinity Stones either reside or pass through here).

Lets just consider Earth a cosmic nexus point and leave it at that.

So what's your "ultimate bigger fish" if not the deities? What's out there that the PCs can't hope to defeat no matter what they do?

You'll have to read the book for that.

Because if there's no ultimate bigger fish, sooner or later it's inevitable you'll hit the point of no risk - and thus no excitement.

I agree, but I think the larger goal is to make each Tier (of play) about something new rather than just bigger numbers and bigger fish to fry.

For instance beyond the Epic Tier is the Immortal Tier; revolving around the struggle of Gods and Anti-gods; gods are (mainly) fueled by worship and that gives them certain advantages and vulnerabilities; while the Anti-gods (Primordials and so forth) care little for mortals.

Beyond the Immortal Tier is the Empyrean Tier which has Elder Gods and Great Old Ones battle throughout the Time Stream with entities and factions from the beginning and ends of time competing to safeguard or destroy timelines.

Beyond the Empyrean Tier is the Sidereal Tier...etc...etc.

Eventually you get to an end point...but there are enough Tiers of Play in-between to duplicate any anime/comic/novel/idea/movie/sci-fi etc.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Well, yes it does, in that if the deities appear to be ultimately defeatable by mortals - and if it has stats, it can be defeated - then a) someone in the setting will almost certainly have already done it at some point (the PCs are by no means the only adventurers out there) and b) the deities will quickly lose the respect and admiration of those who might otherwise adminre and worship them.

a) Which doesn't affect your players because it will never be them anyway because you limit their progression to Mid Tier (or thereabouts).

b) Which doesn't affect your gods because they don't have relatable physical forms and no one in your campaign is allowed powerful enough to interact with them anyway. Plus why would your deities care about admiration and respect when nothing mortals can do can impact or affect them?

Having stats for deities has no impact on your game any more than the Tarrasque having stats. You'll never use either. Doesn't mean the Monster Manual should limit itself to creatures of Challenge Rating 15 or lower.

The bolded is a sentiment I try my best to fight against. The main in-game reward is treasure, the main at-table reward is the fun of playing, and in either case I see levelling-up as no more than a pleasant side effect of play rather than the main reason to keep playing.

And the randomness of treasure actually makes it better as a reward than something more predictable. Intermittent unpredictable rewards are what keeps 'em coming back for more, as casinos figured out ages ago.

Advancement in my games is, by WotC-era standards, very slow; in part so I can keep the campaign going for 10+ years without having to worry about character levels getting high enough that the system falls apart (and every edition hits this problem at some point).

Games work with minimalist treasure/loot, but I haven't seen any work (long term) without character advancement.

I would agree with you treasure acts as the random reward while advancement works as the predictable constant reward.

Character 'Advancement' in the real world typically does not let players fast forward time (unlike RPGs) so your Casino analogy; while applicable to "Random Treasure", does not fill the other half of the equation that is Character Advancement.

 

[Piperken]

Yes, the same one who also survived at the heart of the Sun.

I'd have to check to confirm, but I believe he did in fact, not ask for help, and was separated from his companions when he sank through the hell lava etc. into a cavern below.

When you show this panel to most kids and have them read Thor's internal thinking, they laugh quite immediately and say, "that's dumb!"

 

[Upper_Krust]

I'd have to check to confirm, but I believe he did in fact, not ask for help, and was separated from his companions when he sank through the hell lava etc. into a cavern below.

When you show this panel to most kids and have them read Thor's internal thinking, they laugh quite immediately and say, "that's dumb!"

Its too difficult to keep comics continuity consistent over decades with dozens of different writers and editorial teams.

Its tricky to nail down Marvel's approach but it would seem the gods are immune to natural and even cosmic phenomena unless the source is purposefully 'antagonistic'. So Thor is probably immune to natural elements unless the source of that element is some villain, hazard in the villain's lair or device/magic item created by that villain.