The Purpose of the + in Thread Titles

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
The idea of a + thread is to not derail the premise of the thread. It doesn't mean you can't disagree with or correct factual innacuracies. Let's not strawman the concept into 'not allowed to disagree with the thread starter about anything'.

If people are abusing the + policy, then report them and we'll take a look.

We're not going to post a manual of rules for people to rules-lawyer, as they already are doing in the multiple threads about this topic now. Like everything else, it will be a judgement call. You think they're misusing it? Ask us to take a look. That's what moderators are for. Also, to the wags out there who will try this, don't just report every + thread because you disagree with the very concept of them, because then it's you we'll be taking a look at instead.

Just... be nice. And it'll be fine. Try to game it, and it probably won't.
 

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Alzrius

The EN World kitten
I can appreciate where the two of you are coming from, from a higher level philosophical standpoint. From a practical standpoint? No, really, not all opinions have value, and if a person is starting a conversation in a thread on this forum, they get to set the parameters of the conversation, and that is a very, very, good thing. It keeps the conversation on track, and keeps it from getting derailed by people who will specifically and in bad faith insist their opinions be debated. Sealioning is a significant problem in any online forum (and I mean forum as in any space for conversation, not specifically just message boards) and there is no better practical solution that allowing for and enforcing thread parameters.

Using my example from the top of the thread, if I'm looking for advice on how to make adjustments to Curse of Strahd that I don't like and know my players won't like because they don't jive super well with our values, the absolute last thing I want is for that thread to be bogged down by countless posts from people telling me not to change things and that me and my players are too sensitive and to find something else to run and I'm sorry but none of those opinions were at all helpful or valuable and they ended up derailing and getting the thread locked before I was able to get any actual helpful advice. Restarting the thread with a (+) made the situation much better and in the end I was able to get a lot of incredibly great advice because I was able to set the parameters of the conversation.

(+) threads are incredibly positive and helpful and I have plenty of first-hand experience as to why.
I feel the need to reiterate what @Lanefan mentioned previously, which is that the practical value of an opinion is not the sole purview of the person who starts the thread. Everyone gets to judge every idea on its own merits, and come to their individual conclusions as to how much value (practical or otherwise) those opinions have. For one person to mandate that dissenting opinions are not welcome robs those other posters/lurkers of a chance to be exposed to viewpoints that they might find valuable, even if they don't agree with them.

Likewise, the idea that the person who starts the thread gets to set the parameters for the discussion is a view that certainly has some merits to it, but which also has some drawbacks. Allowing a conversation to evolve and follow its own path can easily lead to new insights, ideas, and conclusions which are outside of the initial scope. While there's certainly room to say that such tangents should be moved to their own thread, those tangents have to be introduced in the first place, which is less likely to happen if the conversation isn't allowed to grow past its opening premise.

Insofar as bad actors go, that's an occupational hazard where discourse is concerned. Leaving aside that the label of "sealioning" can itself be thrown about disingenuously (and I say that as someone who's been wrongfully, and I believe maliciously, accused of such), the nature of a (+) thread has little to do with keeping bad actors at bay, because the guidelines it imposes have little to do with interpersonal conduct; it's more about keeping the topic within constraints than about how you act. The expectation of respect is universal in that regard (and likewise proves universally disappointing when it doesn't happen), hence why standard (i.e. non-plus) threads on EN World are no more exempt from the "don't be a jerk" rule than (+) threads are; it's just that the latter are also moderated for disagreement with the premise.

Now, there's certainly something to be said for only wanting posts that reply to the premise raised in the OP; if the initial poster isn't interested in digressions, then I can see them having no use for such things. But even leaving aside that other people might, I don't want to assign motives to people who disagree with a particular thread's premise; just because they think otherwise doesn't mean that they think they're entitled to a debate.
 

overgeeked

B/X Known World
The idea of a + thread is to not derail the premise of the thread. It doesn't mean you can't disagree with or correct factual innacuracies. Let's not strawman the concept into 'not allowed to disagree with the thread starter about anything'.
Huh. I honestly thought the point of the + thread was to not have disagreements or arguments over the premise.

"Turtles are awesome [+]"

poster jumps in and explains why turtles are terrible

mods step in and bounce the poster for arguing over the premise

So if that's not the point of them, then what is? To not derail the thread, as you say above? That doesn't seem to be how they're used by posters or enforced by the mods. I mean...I can link to mod red text telling posters that staying on topic is a choice they get to make in a + thread. And I can link to a post from you about how posters who don't agree with the premise of a + thread should not bother posting.

I'm honestly not trying to be argumentative, I'm completely confused. I get that you don't want people rules-lawyering a manual, but at this point I honestly don't know what + threads are for or how they are supposed to work. Something concrete would be incredibly helpful.
 



Saracenus

Always In School Gamer
This thread is a poster child for why + threads are necessary. This started out seeking a clarification on what a + thread is and now it has devolved into an argument on whether + threads should exist at all. Newsflash, they exist because the site admins say they exist.

You want to know why I try and avoid thread crapping? Well you probably don't, but here goes. Respect*. If I don't agree with a + thread I move along. It is not for me. I don't need to win. It amazes me that folks who love and play games where there are no individual winners (despite what Chevy Chase's character on Community claimed. And no, Pierce, you did not win D&D, even if it was Advanced) make it sound like they are Sicilian and death is on the line.

* Recognizing that folks have the right to talk about a topic in peace, even if you passionately disagree with it, is showing respect. Especially if they have asked for that consideration. My acceptance that someone can have a differing point of view is never acquiescence to their point of view, and I don't have to prove it over and over again.
 

Reynard

Legend
Based on what was said here, it looks like you should start a thread like say:
Don't petition WotC to remove/ban previously published books and modules! (+)

I mean I can think of a few reasons why book banning is bad.
Two echo chambers is twice as bad. A place where folks can have a reasoned debate is more valuable.

If it is the "reasoned" part you are worried about, that's what the report function is for, and further exactly why this board has two way ignore.

The + is not the right tool.
 

Saracenus

Always In School Gamer
Huh. I honestly thought the point of the + thread was to not have disagreements or arguments over the premise.

"Turtles are awesome [+]"

poster jumps in and explains why turtles are terrible

mods step in and bounce the poster for arguing over the premise


So if that's not the point of them, then what is? To not derail the thread, as you say above? That doesn't seem to be how they're used by posters or enforced by the mods. I mean...I can link to mod red text telling posters that staying on topic is a choice they get to make in a + thread. And I can link to a post from you about how posters who don't agree with the premise of a + thread should not bother posting.

I'm honestly not trying to be argumentative, I'm completely confused. I get that you don't want people rules-lawyering a manual, but at this point I honestly don't know what + threads are for or how they are supposed to work. Something concrete would be incredibly helpful.
Here is how I approach a thread with a + in the title.
  1. I read the desired type of discussion in the Original Post (OP) and if I cannot abide by what is asked, I move on.
  2. If I read the desired type of discussion in the OP and I think it is a violation of the site rules, then I would bump it upstairs to the mods.
  3. If I really need to talk about the topic without the + thread rules, I have the option to find a different thread on the topic or create my own.
It is that simple.

Now why do I handle it this way? Simple. At the height of the Edition Wars on a different site I continually had all my posts on 4e topics disrupted by the voraciously vocal anti-4e folk. That site had dedicated edition sections and in effect most if not all the 4e posts got brigaded by the others edition sections. When we asked for relief from the site admins and mods, they told us it was everyone's right to post whatever they wanted. So we left the site in masse and never looked back. Thread crapping is rude, disruptive, and unwanted. It is not healthy for any community.
 


Saracenus

Always In School Gamer
Well, thanks for the input, but my thread was started to ask the mods directly about the topic. I'm not concerned with how posters use them rather with how the mod staff enforces them. That's the relevant thing. But apparently that's not going to be answered.
They actually did, they review posts and forum topics on a case by case basis. There is no hard line for folks to run right up to but not quite tip over. There is a lot less wiggle room. Think of it as the Spirit of the Rules vs. The Rules as Written.

The site rules are simple: Keep it civil, Keep it clean, Keep it on topic, and Keep it inclusive.

In this case if a + thread asks for everyone to not use argument X because it is disruptive and shuts the topic down, you are by definition NOT on topic if you post argument X in the thread. That is your cue to move on.

@overgeeked I hadn't seen that you pulled your question before I posted my answer. Is it alright to keep it up or would you rather I "never mind" my post as well.
 

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