D&D General The Rakshasa and Genie Problem

[Bedrockgames]

These are linked. Again, why do you think all Genies have slaves? Why is it specifically mentioned as part of the main entry and each sub-entry? Because it's a call back to Arab culture.

If you are having trouble finding it, it's partly because it relates to the trope of Arab decadence: rich Arabs have such opulence and wealth that they own many slaves and do what they will with them. This is on full display with genies and the slavery part is absolutely something that continues on today: to give an example, the villain of the Taken movie is a Sheikh billionaire who takes on kidnapped sex slaves. It's an aspect of a greater stereotype of Arabs, which the Efreet are the worst about (because they are outright villains) but all genies play into.

Again, I think we just disagree that this is much of a stereotype. Arab billionaire, definitely. That exists. I am not sure that is a negative stereotype though (there are plenty of movies and shows with lovable Arab billionaires). But I don't think there is a strong association in peoples minds with slavery and arabs. More recently perhaps because there is more awareness of the global slave trade. But I still don't think it is a strong association (there are lots of places where slavery still happens, and where things like indentured servitude still happens----I think a movie like that was just drawing on real world material rather than indulging a widespread stereotype: slavery is something that exists in the Arab world, so if you have a billionaire Arab villain, it is something a write might draw on....but you might also see it movies where the villain is from any place on a map of modern day slavery (just look it up, there are lots of places where it still exists in some form).

 

[Justice and Rule]

Again, I think we just disagree that this is much of a stereotype. Arab billionaire, definitely. That exists. I am not sure that is a negative stereotype though (there are plenty of movies and shows with lovable Arab billionaires). But I don't think there is a strong association in peoples minds with slavery and arabs. More recently perhaps because there is more awareness of the global slave trade. But I still don't think it is a strong association (there are lots of places where slavery still happens, and where things like indentured servitude still happens----I think a movie like that was just drawing on real world material rather than indulging a widespread stereotype: slavery is something that exists in the Arab world, so if you have a billionaire Arab villain, it is something a write might draw on....but you might also see it movies where the villain is from any place on a map of modern day slavery (just look it up, there are lots of places where it still exists in some form).

I mean, we can literally just look at D&D and see the stereotype in it. Even the good decadent Arab creatures have slaves, it's just that they treat them nicely. If it weren't part of the stereotype, there wouldn't be a need to have the good ones have them as well; then it would be the mark of evil ones. But instead, they all have them. The reasoning is obvious: when you show off rich, decadent Arabs, there is an expectation that they have slaves. If you want to run around it, you can, but it's literally right there in the modern main book.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I mean, I think the first thing we need to at least admit for a common ground is that Efreets are coded to be Arabs. To me, this is undeniable. If you want to argue they aren't harmful, fine. But let's at least agree that they are obviously coded as an Arab culture.

I would probably not use the word coded myself (something about that word just feels off to me), but I do think genies are obviously mostly Arab-flavored in most settings and even in the little we get from the monster manuals. They don't have to be. But that generally is the case (and I think it is because if you make them culturally neutral or create a culture whole cloth, they lose flavor, and go against what people are expecting). Genies are something we all have a clear mental image of when we hear the term, and I think most of us imagine someone in vaguely middle eastern attire and coming from a culture that feels middle eastern. But if you wanted, you could make a setting where genies are just part of the overall cosmology and there are all different cultures of them. That said, I don't think they are stand ins for Arabs. They are arabian themed, arabian inspired, and vaguely at that. They don't strike me as being meant to be interpreted as commentary on Arabs.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I mean, we can literally just look at D&D and see the stereotype in it. Even the good decadent Arab creatures have slaves, it's just that they treat them nicely. If it weren't part of the stereotype, there wouldn't be a need to have the good ones have them as well; then it would be the mark of evil ones. But instead, they all have them. The reasoning is obvious: when you show off rich, decadent Arabs, there is an expectation that they have slaves. If you want to run around it, you can, but it's literally right there in the modern main book.

Again, I don't think this is a stereotype. It is, I agree, boneheaded to have good genies practice slavery. I don't see the connection you are making here. But honestly I think we should move on, this is obviously a point we don't agree upon.

 

[Justice and Rule]

I would probably not use the word coded myself (something about that word just feels off to me), but I do think genies are obviously mostly Arab-flavored in most settings and even in the little we get from the monster manuals. They don't have to be. But that generally is the case (and I think it is because if you make them culturally neutral or create a culture whole cloth, they lose flavor, and go against what people are expecting). Genies are something we all have a clear mental image of when we hear the term, and I think most of us imagine someone in vaguely middle eastern attire and coming from a culture that feels middle eastern. But if you wanted, you could make a setting where genies are just part of the overall cosmology and there are all different cultures of them. That said, I don't think they are stand ins for Arabs. They are arabian themed, arabian inspired, and vaguely at that. They don't strike me as being meant to be interpreted as commentary on Arabs.

I feel like "coded" is a good term because the meaning might not be obvious, but it is still there. It's also not necessarily deliberate, and I think your last line is wrongheaded: I don't think they are trying to make a commentary on Arabs, because I don't think every problematic instance is necessarily deliberate. They're trying to make what they think is cool and also feels Arab to them. And what feels Arab? Well, decadent dudes with slaves, because that's absolutely a trope that we've created and persists even with media depicting modern times.

But while it's not deliberate, it's still there. That's the problem.

Again, I don't think this is a stereotype. It is, I agree, boneheaded to have good genies practice slavery. I don't see the connection you are making here. But honestly I think we should move on, this is obviously a point we don't agree upon.

I feel it is very hard not to see the choice there and not see it as deliberately playing to a specific kind of image.

 

[Vaalingrade]

That said, I don't think they are stand ins for Arabs. They are arabian themed, arabian inspired, and vaguely at that. They don't strike me as being meant to be interpreted as commentary on Arabs.

When they're the only representation of a people, they are defacto the stand-in.

Imagine if a setting had no Irish but Leprechauns constantly depicted as the Luck Charms guy circa 1995.

 

[Bedrockgames]

The reasoning is obvious: when you show off rich, decadent Arabs, there is an expectation that they have slaves.

I think the more likely explanation, and again I still don't think having all genies practice slavery is a good world building approach, is that they decided to draw on real world history for inspiration when they wrote up the city of brass and the other Genie cultures, and they probably drew on periods in Islamic history when slavery was practiced. Similar to how if you had a monster inspired by ancient Rome they might also have slaves. I don't think that means it is a stereotype, so much as the writers were drawing on real world history and material (and I am not saying they did an astounding job of doing so, just my guess is that is where that came from).

 

[Bedrockgames]

When they're the only representation of a people, they are defacto the stand-in.

Imagine if a setting had no Irish but Leprechauns constantly depicted as the Luck Charms guy circa 1995.

I wouldn't think they were commentary on the Irish, I would think the GM or the designer was really into Lucky Charms

 

[Bedrockgames]

I feel like "coded" is a good term because the meaning might not be obvious, but it is still there. It's also not necessarily deliberate, and I think your last line is wrongheaded: I don't think they are trying to make a commentary on Arabs, because I don't think every problematic instance is necessarily deliberate. They're trying to make what they think is cool and also feels Arab to them. And what feels Arab? Well, decadent dudes with slaves, because that's absolutely a trope that we've created and persists even with media depicting modern times.

This is where this stuff loses me. It starts to become an esoteric decoding. I can certainly see it when it is deliberate, obvious, and clearly out of bounds. But when you need to take a lens to media and decode, I find that is I don't know, something I have never really had a lot confidence in as a method. It always struck me as the academic equivalent of conspiracy theorizing or the academic version of looking for subliminal messages in rock music (even when I was a student I recall having this reaction to some of the stuff I had to read in say media survey courses).

 

[Bedrockgames]

I feel it is very hard not to see the choice there and not see it as deliberately playing to a specific kind of image.

I just genuinely disagree with you on this. I certainly don' think they are deliberately trying to engage a stereotype of arabs as slave traders or slave owners. See my other post. It most likely was just them drawing inspiration from the history (Genies are obviously arab inspired and my guess is the city of brass and things like used a lot of Islamic history as source material for inspiration--again not very familiar with city of brass so I can't say for sure but if you read Islamic history and arab history, slavery is there, just like if you read about Rome there is slavery, or if you read about the Antebellum South there is slavery, or even if you read the bible there is slavery). I would imagine a lot of D&D cultures modeled on ancient societies like those from the bible or the ancient mediterranean, are going to have slaves because the writers are taking from the historical source material.