The reason for the cleric class' lack of popularity?

[Gentlegamer]

Gentlegamer,

First of all, I really don't see how an angel (Gandalf) assisted by a powerful magic item (Narya) is a cleric under any definition. All this sanctioned versus unsanctioned magic blather does not erase the fact that a hypostasized angel using a magic ring does not meet any normal set of criteria for what a cleric is.

I did not say it was the "normal" criteria! You have to look closely.

Cleric does not mean "user of sanctioned magic" in anyone's book. Even if I were to accept your formulation of Middle Earth magic, which I don't, you still can't force a brand new definition on the term cleric. Cleric means priest. Gandalf is not a priest; he's a divinity. The fact that a divinity can do things a priest can also do does not make the divinity into a priest.

I would argue that there are no clerics in Middle Earth because there is no formal religion. Devotion is not shown to the Valar in a way that entails priestly worship.

The sanctioned and unsanctioned bit I get directly from MERP. It fits well into the way such matters are handled in Lord of the Rings.

As I posted, an examination of the context of Middle-earth and their roles and outlook makes Gandalf a cleric. The absense of a formal religion is no bar to the existance of clerics, even in a game world. Regardless of the type of being that Gandalf is, he is a servant of a higher power, which is certainly congruent with clerical requirements.

Finally, why would you expect that the LOTR narrative could be represented in D&D anyway? Tolkien's world is not compatible with D&D.

I do not claim that Lord of the Rings fits neatly into D&D; I only wish to counter the assertion that there are no clerics in Middle-earth or Lord of the Rings. You're free to disagree. Just don't let a too scrict reliance on arbitrary game definitions hinder you.

 

[HeavyG]

Also, Sauron is probably not more than a 5th level magic-user, in AD&D terms . . .

Nah, he has to be at least 12th level to get the Forge Ring feat.

 

[Gentlegamer]

Nah, he has to be at least 12th level to get the Forge Ring feat.

Eh, what's that precious? Never 'eard of "Forge Ring feat" in ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS . . .

 

[fusangite]

The sanctioned and unsanctioned bit I get directly from MERP. It fits well into the way such matters are handled in Lord of the Rings.

MERP is a nightmare -- it was a complete failure at expressing Tolkien's world in game terms. MERP made it easy for lots of humans to shoot bolts of fire and electricity at people. So, your idea that MERP accurately represented anything about Tolkien's world just isn't on.

Just don't let a too scrict reliance on arbitrary game definitions hinder you.

I'm not using arbitrary game definitions here. I'm using the dictionary; I'm using conventional English usage. Cleric has a definition. You are choosing to rewrite it.

Gandalf is an angel. He is not a cleric.

 

[Gentlegamer]

Is angel a character class in any version of D&D?

 

[Sarellion]

The german game Engel has 5 classes of angels from level 1 to 20 IIRC.

 

[applenerd]

I always wanted to play a cleric based on the Lancelot of "Excalibur". Angry, suffering a self-imposed exile and mean as a bag of wet ferrets.

You're drifting into definite paladin territory there, the key word being suffering.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Eh, what's that precious? Never 'eard of "Forge Ring feat" in ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS . . .

Oh, then he has to be 9th level to create any magical item at all.

 

[Darth K'Trava]

The cleric in my 3-PC campaign is THE powerhouse (even though the ranger gets, like, 6 attacks per round!). Righteous Might + magic full plate + magic heavy shield + flaming heavy mace = one big can of holy whupass!

Sounds like one I played a year ago......... near the end of the campaign, she had magical fullplate with heavy fortification, a holy greatsword, magical animated shield, an artifact which boosted the holy properties of the sword and quite a few combat-related feats to make her into a big-time ass-whupper....

 

[Staffan]

Eh, what's that precious? Never 'eard of "Forge Ring feat" in ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS . . .

OK then, he has to be 16th level in order to make permanent magic items (because that requires the permanency spell, which is 8th level, which has a level minimum of 16).