D&D General The Renewing Charm of the Old School Play Experience

[MerricB]

I think it's in the 1e DMG somewhere that items have to save if the character fails but are considered safe if the character makes its save. I know it's official 1e, I just don't remember the exact source.

It isn't. That rule appears nowhere in the 1E DMG. It does appear in the 2E DMG.

Frank Mentzer believes you need to fail a save before your items need to save. I think it's a reasonable rule to use if you feel the need to reduce an excess of magic items. Personally, I wouldn't bother for the most part. Bring it out once the PCs have too any items, ignore it otherwise.

The AD&D DMG is mostly silent about how to use item saving throws, saying that they should be "self-explanatory". The only references to the saving throw table are rather amusing:

• If you shoot missiles into a fireball, etc. whether they survive is determined by the table
• Throwing oil, potions, poisons etc. - whether the flask breaks is determined by the table

Cheers!

 

[MerricB]

I've no idea how Basic or 0e handled this

EDIT Original Dungeons & Dragons require saving throws if unattended or the wearer is killed. The table is quite interesting - as the chances of items surviving are quite low! A 10+ is required for a +3 item, a 14+ on a d20 or a +1 item!

Holmes and B/X have no rules or item destruction.

The Companion rules added in rules for magic item damage. Basically, if an item was in the area of a high-damage event, you rolled a d4 (or d6) and compared it to the pluses of the item. Above the pluses? Destroyed! Suggested values are given for items without pluses and there are some suggested bonuses. Saves are made even if the character saves. And it's very underdeveloped and likely rarely used.

3e items only had to save if the character rolled a natural 1 on its own save - and wasn't there a thing in 3e where you only saved for items until one failed and then stopped? (i.e. you could only ever lose one item per event)

No. May have been a house rule, but all items needed to save if you rolled a natural 1!

Cheers!

 

[werecorpse]

Merric, I did a google search on this and came up with this post from your blog in 2012. seems this has come up before a few times

One of my contentions about the D&D rules is that there are a number of areas where Gary Gygax failed to give a rule because it was in a previous edition of the rules. Thus, you require CHAINMAIL to use a lot of original D&D, and there are a number of areas in AD&D that aren’t described because the rules are in oD&D.

Item Saving Throws are one that have caused trouble over the years. The AD&D DMG gives the rules for how they make or fail the checks, but doesn’t actually say when to make the checks. So, we’ve seen over the years versions like “every time you get hit”, “when you fail a save” or “when you fail a save with a natural 1”.

However, the original D&D rules give guidelines as to when to use item saving throws! Monsters & Treasure, page 38, reads, “Magical items will, during the course of play, be struck by various forms of weapons. For the sake of simplicity, it is generally easier to assume that they survive unharmed if their wearer/user is not killed (exception, Helms). If the wearer is killed, or the items are alone, throw for them on the following table…”

AD&D 2E gave the rule as “when character failed saving throw or unattended”, but – for various reasons – I prefer the oD&D rule and will be using it in my AD&D game.

 

[MerricB]

However, the original D&D rules give guidelines as to when to use item saving throws! Monsters & Treasure, page 38, reads, “Magical items will, during the course of play, be struck by various forms of weapons. For the sake of simplicity, it is generally easier to assume that they survive unharmed if their wearer/user is not killed (exception, Helms). If the wearer is killed, or the items are alone, throw for them on the following table…”

Argh! I completely forgot about the oD&D rule. You'd think I'd remember - I've spent a lot with those rules recently. :/ I'll amend my previous answer.

And yes, that "you need to check the earlier rules" is a major problem with Gygax's work.

Cheers!

 

[Lanefan]

It isn't. That rule appears nowhere in the 1E DMG.

You're right - it doesn't.

It's in the PH, under the write-up for Fireball.

"Items exposed to the spell's effects must be rolled for to determine if they are affected. Items with a creature that makes its saving throw are considered as unaffected."

The write-up for Lightning Bolt points back to the Fireball write-up on this question.

I knew I'd seen it somewhere!

 

[MerricB]

You're right - it doesn't.

It's in the PH, under the write-up for Fireball.

"Items exposed to the spell's effects must be rolled for to determine if they are affected. Items with a creature that makes its saving throw are considered as unaffected."

The write-up for Lightning Bolt points back to the Fireball write-up on this question.

I knew I'd seen it somewhere!

Sigh. No wonder it hadn't registered. I was looking in the sections of the PH and DMG that dealt with general rules, rather than specific rules for individual spells.

ARGH!!!!

Thank you for finding the reference! Useful to know!

Cheers!

 

[Ath-kethin]

I'd also like to say that old school D&D has literally got me back into the hobby [snip]

If you want to give old school gaming a spin, I highly recommend Basic Fantasy. It is free as a pdf, well supported with free supplements and bridges the gap between a modern approach and a true classic D&D experience. [snip]

Edited to add: Anyone have want any more details and also anyone have any interesting old school experiences in their games?

I'll bite!

When I started playing with my now-6yo about a year and a half ago, I settled on Basic Fantasy as a great starting point (I was introduced to the system when I was asked to write a module for a game setting an associate of mine was developing). I ran a bunch of the BFRPG modules and they worked really well.

After a bit, the kid asked me to make a character too so they weren't doing everything alone. That turned out to be a good idea, and of course the 6yo is always in the driver seat.

We switched to using Rules Cyclopedia D&D a few months ago, mostly for the slightly greater character options and mostly because I started running old B-series modules and the rules are just more immediately compatible (of course). The kid is very excited about reaching Name Level and becoming a significantly honored individual. It's fantastic to watch them develop reading and math skills through these games.

I love RC D&D. A surprising amount of 5e's roots can be found here (death saves, for one), and the super streamlined system and very low total hit points for both monsters and characters keeps thing moving super fast at the table. We use advantage/disadvantage because it's such an elegant and fantastic mechanic, and Weapon Mastery does more to equalize the damage output of martials than the Book of Nine Swords ever could.

The relatively gonzo nature of Mystara is also just fantastic, and we both love it to pieces, though I'm developing my own setting (and streamlining of the RC) to be published in the next year or so.

Best moments:

- when the kid, not yet coded to just kill everything in sight, jumped over a goblin guarding a door (because that's how Bilbo got past Gollum in the Rankin-Bass Hobbit movie).

- When the kid, as we worked our way through the Lost City, cut off the medusa's head to use against the Living God Zargon on the lowest level (because that's how the Kraken was stopped in Clash of the Titans).

- When the kid panicked a bit after my character was dropped when we were starting to stop a ritual summoning an Elder God ("I can't take Cthulhu alone!" - as though the PAIR of us would have stood a chance either), then realized that they just needed to knock out the cultist chanting at the edge of the pentagram.

5e CAN do anything. But OSR games illustrate well how much easier it is to ADD stuff when you want than it is to SUBTRACT stuff you don't want.

I love 5e. But it's no OSR game. Less is definitely more IMO.

 

[Orius]

Yeah this is something it feels like a number of OSR games either forget or attempt to retcon. Even looking at TSR-published adventures, or just rolling on, say, 2E treasure charts normally, the amount of magic items that appear is quite staggering compared to 5E. As you say, very often an older-edition NPC will often have magic armour, a magic weapon (or two!) and may well be packing potions and/or other magic items to boot.

We had a very interesting discussion on that here some years back:

Treasure and leveling comparisons: AD&D1, B/ED&D, and D&D3 - updated 11-17-08 (Q1)

It started with a curious notion, and it built up from going through one adventure module noting certain things mentally. Then it became actually taking notes on a piece of paper, and comparing between them. Following this opening post, will be lists of the treasure (gp value, xp value, and...

www.enworld.org

Some people did not enjoy seeing their preconceptions challenged, to say the least!

One thing it seems is often forgotten about TSR-era adventures is that while loads of magic items were placed in many published modules, the general expectation was that only some of them would for sure be found, along with a random smattering of others depending where the party went and-or how thoroughly they searched once there.

Three parties could play through the same module and come out with three quite different treasury lists and total values.

I've seen this in play countless times. It's rare indeed that I can look back at an adventure and think "yeah, they totally cleaned that place out". Usually IME on a typical dungeon-crawl-style adventure they come out value-wise with about 3/4 of what's in there; more if they're really diligent and-or very little of the treasure is well-hidden, less if they go totally goal-oriented and make it a fast get-in-get-it-done-get-out trip.

Contrast this with 4e-5e module design and expectations, where items and >>shudder<< "treasure parcels" are (almost always) only placed where they're guaranteed to be found.

It can really vary. Last game I ran was 2e's Night Below, and my players were very thorough, cleaning out a good deal of the treasure in there. But I've run homebrew 3e dungeons where players didn't bother searching some areas and bypassed some magical loot. These were different groups of players, and some are just more aggressive about sacking a dungeon than others.

The old days did have more cursed items. 5e I think is pretty light on them and tends to stick to the ones that are useable by players aware of their actual nature, like the bag of devouring or dust of sneezing and choking. Old school had unreliable identification, often trial by error, and magic would never id the cursed items right -- you'd think it was beneficial right up until it actually mattered, and then the curse hit you at the worst possible time. Cursed items were damn dangerous and I enjoy them as a DM.

 

[Lanefan]

We had a very interesting discussion on that here some years back:

Treasure and leveling comparisons: AD&D1, B/ED&D, and D&D3 - updated 11-17-08 (Q1)

It started with a curious notion, and it built up from going through one adventure module noting certain things mentally. Then it became actually taking notes on a piece of paper, and comparing between them. Following this opening post, will be lists of the treasure (gp value, xp value, and...

www.enworld.org

Some people did not enjoy seeing their preconceptions challenged, to say the least!

That's one of the Quasqueton threads I referenced earlier. Nice find!

The old days did have more cursed items. 5e I think is pretty light on them and tends to stick to the ones that are useable by players aware of their actual nature, like the bag of devouring or dust of sneezing and choking. Old school had unreliable identification, often trial by error, and magic would never id the cursed items right -- you'd think it was beneficial right up until it actually mattered, and then the curse hit you at the worst possible time. Cursed items were damn dangerous and I enjoy them as a DM.

Me too, and in-character as Lanefan I once wrote a rather lengthy field guide to magic item testing just for fun.

 

[werecorpse]

That Quasqueton thread is really fascinating, good job.

I haven’t read it all but have read far enough to see that he finds that up until about level 10 the rate of potential levelling up in 1e and 3e was about the same, then it slowed down In 1e after that. It wasnt my play experience but It seems right enough if you gave xp for gold - in most games I played in the GMs tended to give no xp for gold.

At One point he refers to Gary saying that he expected players to reach level 10 after about 52 4hour sessions which he says seems borne out by the published material. That seems a good pace. I find 5e a bit faster than that and that & it seems to speeds up after level 10.