D&D General The Role and Purpose of Evil Gods

[Helldritch]

You are correct, all RP for a domain does not need to be the same. Because Domains are cleric subclasses.



No, he is not. Because Domains are cleric subclasses. A sect is a sect. I can pick one, and not have the other.



You are right Max, I can't win when you refuse to even read what I wrote and consider it and instead scream "YOU ARE WRONG, I AM RIGHT!" as loud as you can.

This is where you are wrong.
Domains are not really cleric subclasses. And yet they are. As strangely as this dichotomy sounds. Clerics have no subclasses per say. This is because this choice is extremely limited...

If clerics could really choose their "subclasses" You could see.
War Clerics of Eldath (Peace and Serenity). (though it might be fun to see an Ethos like that. WE WILL BRING YOU PEACE! WHETER YOU WANT IT OR NOT!)
Death Clerics of Pelor! (If life lets you down, undeath will bring you back up!)
Trickster Clerics of Torm, Tyr and Helm! (We will trick you into following the law...)
Life Clerics of Nerul. (With us, you can die any time. We will bring you back for more...)
and so on.

The clerics domains are subclasses in the sense that you can only pick the one(s) that your deity allows you to pick. Compared to all other classes this is a HUGE restriction. It must then mean something more than just a subclass. Some RP must derive from this. After all, Paladins are now free of the Gods and as a "usually religious" class, they can have access to all their subclasses no matter which deity they worship. It can be perfectly possible to have an "avenger" of Eldath.

So yes, whether you want it or not, domains are also a focus on which aspect of your deity you worship. These can then be put into different churches worshipping different aspect of the deity. This is why in the Acolyte background you have to (and not should or might) consider the domain of worship you will take. Only the cleric derives power from that choice. But to all others, it is a choice nonetheless and this choice has more meaning than what you want it to have.

On good deities, this probably won't bring a lot dissension between the practioners. But in Evil religions, this can lead to unholy wars quite fast. You wanted to know the use of evil deities? You have one right here. How? Simple.

Acolytes and cultists can be non casters, so they do not communicate with their deity (in fact, cleric do not communicate either until mid to high level). But their acolytes must choose a domain/sect. This can lead to bad or misguided interpretations. Which might leads to wars and ruthless combats between two sects (or more).

 

[Chaosmancer]

From page 59.

"All the domains over which a deity has influence are called the deity's portfolio."

Uh-huh, so a set of domains is a portfolio. But what is a domain? It is a cleric subclass. That is why the Divine Domains are listed for the cleric. That is why the Domain Spells are gained by clerics. That is why you say "I'm playing a Life Domain Cleric" just like you would say "I'm playing a Champion Fighter". The only time a player picks a domain for their character, is when they are picking their cleric subclass.

And, let us pay attention to that phrase "pick a domain for their character". You aren't picking a domain for a God. You aren't picking a domain for your character. Your character has a domain. But the only time that makes sense is when you are gaining a subclass.

Bad logic is bad. I didn't say you need that. I said the game calls it out in the DMG. You also know that I explicitly said in response to you that there can be different sects in the same domain. Remember the Tempus example?

It's almost as if you deliberately try to ignore what I say. I wonder why you do that.

If you can have sects that aren't tied to domains, then you don't need domains to have sects. They are unrelated. I can eat ground beef without eating a hamburger. So I don't need hamburgers to get ground beef. I can make ground beef into a hamburger if I want, but they aren't the same thing.

So, again, Domains are not sects. You can have multiple sects within a single domain. You can have sects that are not related to any domain that currently exists. They are not related concepts. And the only time you pick a domain for your character, is when you are a cleric choosing your domain as a subclass.

You mean he doesn't have a domain that doesn't exist in the PHB, which is where Apollo is? Shocker!

I'm cutting out the rest of the gymnastics. What domains he might or might not have due to real life is just a big ole Red Herring. The Apollo from the game is loosely based on the real Greek myth. He has what they give him and nothing more.

huh, wonder why you would cut out the reasons he would get the death domain, the knowledge domain, the war domain and focus only on the one that isn't in the PHB? By the way, when they reprinted the Order domain in Tasha's they did give it to gods that didn't have it before. So, if they wanted Apollo to have it, they would have given it to him. And, like I said before, Apollo as Phoebus and Apollo as Apollo Acesius are IRL titles that he had. Saying that we can only talk about what the game gives him, when they make clear references to his real history, is like saying we can't say that Zeus is Jupiter, because they didn't give us the Roman names.

Listing a bunch of sects for Apollo that he would clearly have in an Ancient Greek DnD game isn't mental gymnastics either. It is knowing mythology and how religions and splinter groups work. And showing that, as I keep saying sects =/= domains.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Actually those description after the name are not termed portfolios in the 5e PH.

Check out page 293 "The gods of Greyhawk come from at least four different pantheons, representing the faiths of the various ethnic groups that populated the continent of Oerik over the ages. As a result, there's a great deal of overlap in their portfolios: Pelor is the Flan god of the sun and Pholtus is the Oeridian sun god, for example."

Using the page 59 description of portfolios are the domains, Pelor's portfolio is the Life and Light domain while Pholtus's portfolio is the Light domain, showing a great deal of overlap in their portfolios. Their descriptions as gods are actually not as overlapping, "Pelor, god of the sun and healing" and "Pholtus, god of light and law"

But I think the key point here is that while Pholtus has the domain of "light" he could be worshiped as the God of Law, and have sects devoted his worship as only a lawgiver and judge.

The domain is not the limit of the sects he can be worshiped by, and in fact, they are barely related at all, and it is far easier to imagine that the domains are a result of the deity's dogma, which can also lead to sects, but they are branches with the same root, not a continuation of the branch.

 

[Chaosmancer]

This is where you are wrong.
Domains are not really cleric subclasses. And yet they are. As strangely as this dichotomy sounds. Clerics have no subclasses per say. This is because this choice is extremely limited...

If clerics could really choose their "subclasses" You could see.
War Clerics of Eldath (Peace and Serenity). (though it might be fun to see an Ethos like that. WE WILL BRING YOU PEACE! WHETER YOU WANT IT OR NOT!)
Death Clerics of Pelor! (If life lets you down, undeath will bring you back up!)
Trickster Clerics of Torm, Tyr and Helm! (We will trick you into following the law...)
Life Clerics of Nerul. (With us, you can die any time. We will bring you back for more...)
and so on.

You totally can do this. I don't know why you think you can't.

The clerics domains are subclasses in the sense that you can only pick the one(s) that your deity allows you to pick. Compared to all other classes this is a HUGE restriction. It must then mean something more than just a subclass. Some RP must derive from this. After all, Paladins are now free of the Gods and as a "usually religious" class, they can have access to all their subclasses no matter which deity they worship. It can be perfectly possible to have an "avenger" of Eldath.

So yes, whether you want it or not, domains are also a focus on which aspect of your deity you worship. These can then be put into different churches worshipping different aspect of the deity. This is why in the Acolyte background you have to (and not should or might) consider the domain of worship you will take. Only the cleric derives power from that choice. But to all others, it is a choice nonetheless and this choice has more meaning than what you want it to have.

On good deities, this probably won't bring a lot dissension between the practioners. But in Evil religions, this can lead to unholy wars quite fast. You wanted to know the use of evil deities? You have one right here. How? Simple.

Acolytes and cultists can be non casters, so they do not communicate with their deity (in fact, cleric do not communicate either until mid to high level). But their acolytes must choose a domain/sect. This can lead to bad or misguided interpretations. Which might leads to wars and ruthless combats between two sects (or more).

You seem to be under the misapprehension that the cleric is somehow limited to only the domains directly stated to be held by the god. This isn't exactly true. Sure, I'd say that you'd have a hard time justifying being a cleric of light for Shar, who despises all light, but for many gods justifying any number of domains is trivially easy.

Take Boldrie, the Goddess of community and home. She has the Life domain, makes sense in terms of comfort and healing. But is that the only domain that a cleric of Boldrei could choose? No. Tasha's says she gets Peace, but she is also an agriculture goddess, so a Nature Domain would make a lot of sense. Communities need to be defend, so a War Cleric or Twilight Cleric makes a lot of sense. Her symbol is the hearth fire, so Light domain makes sense. If she is being worshipped by gnomes (she is an Eberron Deity, so there are no racial dieties) then Trickery or Knowledge makes a lot of sense because of how they view community and because of The Trust. Forge makes sense, as a blacksmith is often a cornerstone of the community and we get into the Hearth fire aspect again, with a more martial bent. Order is something that you could do with her, if she was being worshiped by a more militaristic race. Grave makes sense as the comfort of home and the concept of death being where you are reunited with loved ones.

There are very few domains that we can say don't apply. Tempest is about the only one I think doesn't fit at all... but even that could fit depending on where you lived.

And we can go even beyond that. You could have a religion based on The Traveler who see Boldrie as a Temptress, luring people away from their true homes in the wilds. There is no domain for "evil temptress" but that doesn't mean that an acolyte can't see her in that light, because Domains are at best starting points.

 

[Helldritch]

You totally can do this. I don't know why you think you can't.



You seem to be under the misapprehension that the cleric is somehow limited to only the domains directly stated to be held by the god. This isn't exactly true. Sure, I'd say that you'd have a hard time justifying being a cleric of light for Shar, who despises all light, but for many gods justifying any number of domains is trivially easy.

Take Boldrie, the Goddess of community and home. She has the Life domain, makes sense in terms of comfort and healing. But is that the only domain that a cleric of Boldrei could choose? No. Tasha's says she gets Peace, but she is also an agriculture goddess, so a Nature Domain would make a lot of sense. Communities need to be defend, so a War Cleric or Twilight Cleric makes a lot of sense. Her symbol is the hearth fire, so Light domain makes sense. If she is being worshipped by gnomes (she is an Eberron Deity, so there are no racial dieties) then Trickery or Knowledge makes a lot of sense because of how they view community and because of The Trust. Forge makes sense, as a blacksmith is often a cornerstone of the community and we get into the Hearth fire aspect again, with a more martial bent. Order is something that you could do with her, if she was being worshiped by a more militaristic race. Grave makes sense as the comfort of home and the concept of death being where you are reunited with loved ones.

There are very few domains that we can say don't apply. Tempest is about the only one I think doesn't fit at all... but even that could fit depending on where you lived.

And we can go even beyond that. You could have a religion based on The Traveler who see Boldrie as a Temptress, luring people away from their true homes in the wilds. There is no domain for "evil temptress" but that doesn't mean that an acolyte can't see her in that light, because Domains are at best starting points.

If you, as a player, would try to even think of doing such mad illogical things at my table. You would quickly see what a spell less and powerless cleric would feel like.

So nope, no can't do. Arguing that it can be is utter madness for me... and for the vast majority of the players and DMs out there. Try to find an other angle to defend your bad position. Your take on this is already a dead horse from the start.

 

[Maxperson]

Uh-huh, so a set of domains is a portfolio. But what is a domain? It is a cleric subclass. That is why the Divine Domains are listed for the cleric. That is why the Domain Spells are gained by clerics. That is why you say "I'm playing a Life Domain Cleric" just like you would say "I'm playing a Champion Fighter". The only time a player picks a domain for their character, is when they are picking their cleric subclass.

It doesn't matter what a domain is. Why? Because whatever else it is, it is ALSO a portfolio which is for roleplaying. By RAW, domain = portfolio. Period. Nothing you can argue will ever change that fact.

 

[Voadam]

In my own games I am a big fan of clerics taking whatever domain they feel is appropriate for their character and not being limited to the narrow suggestions of the PH list. I feel it is trivially easy to fit most domains narratively to various priest traditions or to associate most domains with various gods.

The PH does say the cleric must pick from the domains of their god.

Then in the appendix it gives a list of suggested domains for various gods.

In the DMG page 10 it says:

"As far as the game's rules are concerned, it doesn't matter if your world has hundreds of deities or a church devoted to a single god. In rules terms, clerics choose domains, not deities, so your world can associate domains with deities in any way you choose."

This of course contradicts all the PH references to clerics having to choose gods.

 

[Chaosmancer]

If you, as a player, would try to even think of doing such mad illogical things at my table. You would quickly see what a spell less and powerless cleric would feel like.

So nope, no can't do. Arguing that it can be is utter madness for me... and for the vast majority of the players and DMs out there. Try to find an other angle to defend your bad position. Your take on this is already a dead horse from the start.

So, if I as a player wanted to play a cleric who worshipped a goddess of hearth and home, and wanted to use the Forge domain to represent being a stalwart defender who used fire... you'd remove all powers and abilities because it is completely illogical?

Funny how earlier in this thread it was that I was limiting myself by not connecting domains and sects. And now if I want to actually have a sect for a religion that isn't the standard I'm going to get shut down instantly.

 

[Maxperson]

In my own games I am a big fan of clerics taking whatever domain they feel is appropriate for their character and not being limited to the narrow suggestions of the PH list. I feel it is trivially easy to fit most domains narratively to various priest traditions or to associate most domains with various gods.

The PH does say the cleric must pick from the domains of their god.

Then in the appendix it gives a list of suggested domains for various gods.

In the DMG page 10 it says:

"As far as the game's rules are concerned, it doesn't matter if your world has hundreds of deities or a church devoted to a single god. In rules terms, clerics choose domains, not deities, so your world can associate domains with deities in any way you choose."

This of course contradicts all the PH references to clerics having to choose gods.

It doesn't really contradict the PHB, because those are optional ways that the DM could set up his world if he wants to. When the DM opts into something that goes against a rule, the new ruling/homebrew supersedes it.

 

[Chaosmancer]

It doesn't matter what a domain is. Why? Because whatever else it is, it is ALSO a portfolio which is for roleplaying. By RAW, domain = portfolio. Period. Nothing you can argue will ever change that fact.

No. Portfolios = Multiple domains gathered together. That's the definition you keep posting. This is like claiming that a gaggle of geese = a single goose.