The Shadow Knows! (Final Update 6/3/04)

[The Shadow]

I fail to see what is so objectionable or "tossing out old physics" about psionics that can't be reproduced mechanically.

In our view for purposes of this game, "psionics" is the result of an immaterial mind and a material brain operating in tandem. Technology can boost or even block the brain's contribution, but can't even touch the mind's contribution. There's no "ghost in the machine", if you'll pardon the pun.

Speaking as a physicist, I don't see how physics could even begin to tackle the question of an immaterial mind. But since respected physicists and mathematicians like Wigner, Neumann, Eccles, and Penrose have proposed such a thing to account for quantum mechanics (among other things), it's hardly "ludicrous". You are free to disagree, but I see no need to mock - the more so since this is fiction.

Who said the Portable Window uses visible light? Not me. Since it involves the Blindsight feat, presumably it doesn't give true color information.

I'm sorry you don't like the way SP and I approach comic-book superscience, but honestly this seems to be a matter of taste. I love hard SF, and I love learning about real science, but I don't see the need to game that way all the time.

P.S. As for time travel, that too is a major issue generating papers lately. But not your typical SF time travel, to be sure; the only kind that current physics MAY support is the "inevitable" kind. ie, you went back in time because, in fact, you already did. Also, you can't go back in time beyond the creation of your time machine.

 

[Wrath of the Swarm]

Is there a discussion thread for this game? I'd prefer not to mess up this one further than I already have.

I fail to see what is so objectionable or "tossing out old physics" about psionics that can't be reproduced mechanically.

In our view for purposes of this game, "psionics" is the result of an immaterial mind and a material brain operating in tandem. Technology can boost or even block the brain's contribution, but can't even touch the mind's contribution. There's no "ghost in the machine", if you'll pardon the pun.

Speaking as a physicist, I don't see how physics could even begin to tackle the question of an immaterial mind. But since respected physicists and mathematicians like Wigner, Neumann, Eccles, and Penrose have proposed such a thing to account for quantum mechanics (among other things), it's hardly "ludicrous". You are free to disagree, but I see no need to mock - the more so since this is fiction.

Have you ever read Penrose's works on the subject? I have - and they aren't pretty. The man is a genius, but he's a genius who's fixated on a remarkably poor argument and can't be pried away from it. And relating quantum mechanics and cognitive functions is poor reasoning, at best. (Speaking as a former physics student who became a cognitive psychologist - I do not take kindly to attempts to bypass logical restrictions on the nature of human thought, which is really what those people are trying to do.)

Postulating immaterial things is all likelihood isn't even conceptually coherent - if we accept the premise, information theory forces us to acknowledge that the model is indistinguishable from one in which material things simply have certain properties. Then the question of why the interactions in question haven't been detected in physics yet arises. Not to mention the problem of how this hypothetical mind manages to become linked with the biological computer of the brain... well, let's just say that things get messy very, very quickly.

Who said the Portable Window uses visible light? Not me. Since it involves the Blindsight feat, presumably it doesn't give true color information.

Blindsight is usually interpreted as involving vibration and air currents, at least with humans. In D&D settings, it doesn't permit people to sense through walls. Eh, it's your game.

I love hard SF, and I love learning about real science, but I don't see the need to game that way all the time.

Who said anything about real science? But even fictional science has certain limits. Violate those limits, and it's just technomagic, and implausible technomagic at that.

I'm picky enough to have tried to work out how FTL works in Joss Whedon's Firefly... so things like Portable Windows and Disintegrators make me itch.

 

[The Shadow]

Is there a discussion thread for this game? I'd prefer not to mess up this one further than I already have.

No, and I propose that we just agree to disagree and leave it be.

My original draft of this post included a rebuttal to some of your (rather remarkable, in my view) philosophical statements, but I've deleted that portion. Honestly, I don't feel the need to justify a game out to that level. It is a game set in a fictional world, and we treat it coherently and consistently, which is all that need be asked of fiction.

(Do you argue with D&D campaigns for using the "Trap the Soul" spell, by the way? I made no assertion that immaterial minds exist in reality. I readily admit that I in fact do believe in the soul in real life - though not in full-blown Cartesian dualistic fashion - but that is not at issue here. I asserted only that we have adopted that view for purposes of the game. I confess I did unwisely try to "justify" the idea somewhat from real life, but I have come to my senses; this is a game.)

I do not think we have done anything worthy of being called "ludicrous", and I feel quite irked that you are tossing around that kind of insulting phrase. If you feel that strongly (again, about a fictional story set in a fictional world in the context of a game), well, nobody is forcing you to read further.

Blindsight is usually interpreted as involving vibration and air currents, at least with humans. In D&D settings, it doesn't permit people to sense through walls. Eh, it's your game.

Blindsight and Penetration Vision. I said it included Blindsight. I didn't say that was the entirety of it. Also, if you didn't notice, I don't happen to be playing D&D. Blindsight in M&M includes ANY method of sensing in a mode equivalent to (colorblind) vision within a certain range. Sonar, radar, "cosmic awareness", whatever. I suggest you consult the rules of the relevant system before you make dismissive comments.

I'm picky enough to have tried to work out how FTL works in Joss Whedon's Firefly... so things like Portable Windows and Disintegrators make me itch.

I am not that picky, except maybe in certain moods. So I suggest we stop discussing this. I really do not find it very interesting or even relevant to the story I'm writing. I don't come to ENWorld to discuss this sort of topic. And honestly, just where are the strict, well-defined limits you crave in fantasy magic?

To the extent you see *dramatic* dangers, I agree caution is needed. But to the extent that your (rather specialized) taste rebels against the world SP and I play in, I think we've said about all that needs to be said. We like it, and other people appear to also. You are free not to like it. Enough said.

 

[Wrath of the Swarm]

And honestly, just where are the strict, well-defined limits you crave in fantasy magic?

I take it you've never read any Ursula K. LeGuin, or Diane Duane, or even Terry Pratchett? Good fantasy magic always has its limits. Even D&D, which places almost no limits on what magic can accomplish (and suffers from that freedom, IMO) has guidelines for determining the power of spells at certain levels.

Now, fantasy in which any arbitrary thing can happen is rather like roleplaying when the GM changes the rules on the fly to make the game match his vision. It's very interesting - to the GM. Or like episodes of Star Trek where the problem is solved with some button-pushing and technobabble.

I suppose we'll simply have to disagree. The story will suffer as a consequence, but it's yours to do with as you please.

 

[Lela]

I suppose we'll simply have to disagree. The story will suffer as a consequence, but it's yours to do with as you please.

Realizing that we're letting this die, I still want to say I haven't seen any suffering story around this thread. In fact, it seems to be having a grand old time.

 

[Wrath of the Swarm]

Realizing that we're letting this die, I still want to say I haven't seen any suffering story around this thread. In fact, it seems to be having a grand old time.

[shrugs] I'm as sensitive to the technological/thaumaturgical aspects of science fiction and fantasy as most people are to character development and behavior. To me, the former are beginning to overshadow the latter in this story. Presumably others' opinions will vary.

 

[The Shadow]

I take it you've never read any Ursula K. LeGuin, or Diane Duane, or even Terry Pratchett? Good fantasy magic always has its limits. Even D&D, which places almost no limits on what magic can accomplish (and suffers from that freedom, IMO) has guidelines for determining the power of spells at certain levels.

Now, fantasy in which any arbitrary thing can happen is rather like roleplaying when the GM changes the rules on the fly to make the game match his vision. It's very interesting - to the GM. Or like episodes of Star Trek where the problem is solved with some button-pushing and technobabble.

Wrath of the Swarm, I find you to be a very frustrating conversationalist. You put words in my mouth, fight straw men, make uncalled-for dismissive comments, and ignore most of the points I make. And may I just ask that if you find this Story Hour so uninteresting and arbitrary, why you praised it so highly in the first place?

I find it astonishing that you allow to fantasy magic the right you do not allow to us - the right to create its own rules (and stick to them). SP's campaign world somehow is not OK, because it transgresses against real-life science (you have denied this, I realize, but you harp on it constantly regardless) but LeGuin's magic (yes, I've read all three authors) is OK because it's internally self-consistent.

We think our treatment of Hal is internally self-consistent. What makes you think you even KNOW what limits there are on his powers? Has SP, the GM, sat down and explained to you just what limits he has set and where? He hasn't even done that with me!

And heck, Hal in practice has AT LEAST the same limits that you argue D&D magic does, because the Shadow can never use more than two ranks of an M&M power in a gadget! (The Shadow himself is PL 12, which means he can have up to twelve ranks in any power. Two ranks is a pittance in M&M terms - equivalent in most powers to casting 0-level spells, or maybe 1st level.)

I am through discussing this matter with you. I do not intend to respond to any further posts on it from you, because I find you to be rude and interaction with you unpleasant. Good day.

 

[Wrath of the Swarm]

Put words in your mouth? I don't believe I've done that.

What I found interesting was the development of the characters' motivations and the complexity and consistency of their personalities. The comic-book science was tolerable up until the last few updates.

I'm sorry I've offended you.

 

[The Shadow]

I'm sorry I've offended you.

I accept your apology. And I likewise apologize for using excessive heat in a thread on a game.

I think we both could probably stand to step back and take more time in our replying. Lives do not hinge upon anything posted here.

 

[Lela]

Not real lives anyway.