The Shadowcaster -weak?

[Thomas Percy]

Thanks for help with Warp Spell mystery and for new shadowcaster advancement system.

 

[Ranes]

Just want to echo what TP said about Warp Spell (wow - I wuz right) and thank you for your suggested changes, Ari. I'm enjoying the whole book but I think your unofficial revision makes the shadowcaster a whole bunch more enticing (although I was going to create an NPC shadowcaster or two anyway).

What do you reckon are the chances of you persuading WotC to incorporate them into updated errata?

 

[Nifft]

It makes me wish I could get hold of this class now - unfortunately I don't have any interest in the other two kinds of magic in that book, and I don't think I can justify the book based on 1/3 of its contents!

It's funny. I often suggest the book to people on the basis of a different 1/3 (specifically, the pact magic).

Cheers, -- N

 

[Mouseferatu]

I don't like the floating bonus mystery. I don't like it at all. It runs counter to the entire flavor of the class. I'd prefer giving an extra use based on intelligence for all mysteries of that level. I don't think this would create a problem, it effectively doubles the mysteries per day for all apprentice mysteries, and creates a motivation to pursue intelligence scores beyond 19.

I really don't want to change the basic flavor of mysteries known yielding their own uses per day in favor of some sort of floating use like every other caster.

While I definitely see where you're coming from, I'm not sure I agree. The uses per day are still based mostly around the mysteries known. I don't think allowing a single "floater" of a few levels necessarily breaks that, and I do think that adding one to all mysteries of that level is too much. If nothing else, allowing a couple of floating mysteries adds a bit more flexibility, which a lot of people seemed to want, without altering the fundamental nature of the class.

Its a little funny though, that the save progression for your master level mysteries actually ends up with them being weaker than your mysteries cast as supernatural abilities. Path Focus helps a bit with this, although the level 7 mysteries still lag.

It's definitely odd, but I kind of like it. It's very different, and it really drives home the point that these have truly become supernatural abilities.

I would happily play a character with these changes, with the caveat above that I don't like, and would prefer not to use, the floating mystery use per day.

I'm glad to hear it.

 

[WarlockLord]

Thanks Ari. I hope I can get my DM to use this.


Now, if only WoTC would endorse this errata. Maybe you could take it to them.

 

[WarlockLord]

One more rules question: could I take Extra Spell to leran a mystery?

 

[schatten-k.raehe]

Sorry for not posting 'till now... Because of a major hard drive crash I've been busy recovering data... ~.~

First of all thanks to you Ari! It's good to see a game designer really caring about his creation and taking account into the suggestion of gamers for the benefit of all

Okay, I still have to review the suggested tweaks to the mystery-casting system, however there are still some moderate flaws to the mechanics which IMHO need correction.

I've always been a friend of using existing rules first and adding new mechanics if absolutely necessary, only. Every new rule further complicates a game and makes a DM's live (and to a lesser degree a Player's live, too) harder, especially when introducing new claasses with new / different mechanics. Let's face it, in actual game play, players tend to remember all bonuses their characters get, but all too easy forget some penalties left and right...

That said take a look at the Mysteries and Paths section (TM, p. 138):
Some of the benefits / penalty sounded quite familiar, especially the penalties for spell/mystery interaction and the penalty to spellcraft checks.
Following the approach already given in the Spell Thematics and Tenacious Magic feats from Players Guide to Faerûn (p. 44-45), I'd suggest a 'one-way' penalty only.


Further I don't know, if the introduction of Metashadow feats is really necessary. I haven't had the time to check every single Metamagic feat, however I guess restricting mystery-casting classes to Metamagic feats that do not use a higher level spell slot (because mystery-users don't have any spell-slots in the first place) would do just as fine. New [Metamagic] feats for mystery-casting classes only, could have the prequisite "mystery-using class". In my experience sticking to the rules already known to all is always better than introducing something new and I really don't know if the game needs just another kind of Feats, especially as I fear we won't see much (if any) support of shadow magic in future supplements. While there would be lots of new options for other classes, keeping them flexible, the shadowcaster would remain static and become more and more unattractive to players over time.

Restriction of feats like Ability Focus and Empower Spell-like Ability is another matter I'd not see as a necessity. Do you really think access to those Feats would be that unbalancing?
Haven't thought about it too intensely, but spontanously I'd suggest a mystery affected by e.g. Empower Spell-like Ability would become a real spell-like ability and stop being a mystery. The consequences? Lower level mysteries won't become supernatural abilities and Metashadow feats cannot be applied to the ex-mystery anymore. At least at first glance it sounds like a fair trade-off to me, doesn't it?

Prestige class restriction (TM p. 117) is a really tricky matter. On the one hand it's quite hard to restrict shadowcasters to that few options, on the other hand I understand the reasons why. Hm... Maybe a simple official list (web enhancement?) of published prestige classes a shadowcaster would qualify for would do?

Btw. I'd really like to see a ...uhm... 'more detailed' version of the The Shadow Weave of Toril side-box given on page 110 of the TM. As it is, it's rather a bunch of useless information. Is a shadowcaster automatically considered a Shadow Weave user (e.g. gaining the Shadow Weave Magic feat as a bonus feat?) ? Should a shadowcaster get access to the set of Shadow Weave Feats (two of them being Metamagic feats)? Shouldn't shadowcasters qualify for the Shadow Adept prestige class?
The suggestion about the Mysteries and Paths section above would solve some of the problems, as you actually could rule shadowcasters being shadow weave users, gaining the Shadow Weave Magic and Tenacious Magic feats for free.

Well, I'll try to take a deeper look at the suggested changes to the mystery-casting mechanics later that week.

 

[Infernal Teddy]

Quick thought - how do the Shades (From the FRCS) interact with shadow magic?

 

[schatten-k.raehe]

Quick thought - how do the Shades (From the FRCS) interact with shadow magic?

Quick answer :
It depends on your / your DM's personal preferences.

After all "shade" is nothing but a template, thus shades should interact with shadow magic like any other template - it depends on the character class of the base creature only.

However here some spontanous thoughts of introducing shadow magic into a FR campaign:

I. Replace the whole Shadow Weave mechanics by introducing shadowcasters, mystery-using prestige classes and heavy use of the creeping darkness feature (TM p. 115) instead.

II. Use both shadow weave magic and mystery-users side by side. Mystery-users just have a deeper understanding of the shadow weave than 'ordinary' shadow weave users. The shades of the city of Shade naturally should be the ones who learned about 'real' shadow magic at first. On the other hands shadowcasters should be able to learn the ritual required to transform themselves into shades (or any other shadow being, like Dark Creatures, Shadow Creatures, Shadow-Walkers etc.).

III. As soon as a weave user becomes a shadow weave user, he gains access to mystery-using classes. He cannot advance in any other spellcasting class as long as his mystery-using class level is not greater than the other spellcasting class level you want to advance. If possible, any time the character advances in a mystery-using class, he has to convert a spellcasting class level (if any) into another level of mystery-using class by means of the creeping darkness feature.

Further thoughts (House rules only, as those represent my very personal view of shadow magic):
I don't like the approach of shadow magic requireing intensive study - It just seems plain wrong to me, being more appropriate for magic involving the Far Realm or psionics.
Shadow magic should be hard to discover in first place, but once you have unraveled its secrets, power should come to you easily, as it should be the nature of shadow magic to be seductive and corruptive. As a house rule in my campaign, instead of Intelligence, Wisdom will govern the max. mystery level you can cast.
Further opening yourself to the pull of the Plane of Shadows (or the Shadow Weave respectively) should not be without risks. As an optional rule there'll be a cumulative 2 - 5 % (haven't decided yet) chance every time you try to advance in a mystery-using class the pull of the Shadow Plane will taint the character's soul, transforming him into a Dark Creature (TM p. 158) instead of allowing him to unravel further mysteries (aka advance a level).
Last minor change: good reflex and good will saves instead of good fortitude and good will saves. Although I like the explaination given to the good fortitude save, I think a good reflex save more appropriate to the elusive, corruptive and draining nature of shadow magic.

 

[zypherillius]

I have been having a lot of trouble trying to make a decent shadowcaster. Thus, I have concluded it's kinda weak. The path system and lack of decent combat fundamentals dooms it. Which is sad, as it has well-thought-out flavor.


If anyone has a decent single-classed shadowcaster, or disagrees with me, posts it here. If you disagree, post a good one.

yeah, the class is kind of weak by itself, which is why id multiclass with a wizard or sorcerer than take the noctomancer class as a PrC, its pretty good. youd have lost three levels of one casting, but youre going to progress 10 more, then id just finish out wizard when i got done with the noctomancer. then youd have a good shadowcaster indeed , but not single-class