The Shifter PrC

[Victim]

According to the MotW FAQ (not errata) no. Although no real answer for why is given.

Of course, a 20th level Druid can do the same thing better by simply taking all his 9th level spell slots that he has and you don't and keep himself shapechanging 24 hours a day (with the aid of a Greater Extend Rod). That's kind of the same thing except that it's a free action and with a Karma Bead you can become a White Slaad even after the "nerfing" in the errata.

The Shifter Class is tragically smaller in every way than is the Single-classed Druid.

-Frank

The Shifter hits a sweet spot at around level 15 (Druid 5, Shifter 10) where they have a large variety of available forms based on shifter abilities and HD, but haven't been made obselete by Shapechange.

In one game, my 3.0 wizard was barred from learning Shapechange so as to avoid stepping on the Shifter's toes (rather, running his legs over with a steam roller). At around levels 15-17 (when the Shifter had unlimited changes), we found the Shifter to be a strong, but not usually overpowering character. In combat, the Shifter lacked the offensive power of other characters, and often had a lower armor class. The character was strong defensively (mostly because the character had a super pumped Con) and was very effective against spellcasters (Stone Golem form). On the other hand, the Shifter proved quite effective in destroying a set piece dungeon (3e'd version of Tomb of Horrors). He could burrow through areas, turn incorporeal to check for hidden areas around room, become a Golem for immunity to most traps, etc. Since the Shifter's player was named Steve, we started saying "We Steve the room." Because the DM looked to be getting somewhat upset, the player started holding back his abilities.

In short, the Shifter can be a strong support character and should be able to survive combat. He feeds on dungeon crawls, but can suffer a bit in a crazy teleport/scrying/big battle high level play. And Shapechange is like a slap in the face to Shifters.

 

[Victim]

According to the MotW FAQ (not errata) no. Although no real answer for why is given.

Of course, a 20th level Druid can do the same thing better by simply taking all his 9th level spell slots that he has and you don't and keep himself shapechanging 24 hours a day (with the aid of a Greater Extend Rod). That's kind of the same thing except that it's a free action and with a Karma Bead you can become a White Slaad even after the "nerfing" in the errata.

The Shifter Class is tragically smaller in every way than is the Single-classed Druid.

-Frank

The Shifter hits a sweet spot at around level 15 (Druid 5, Shifter 10) where they have a large variety of available forms based on shifter abilities and HD, but haven't been made obselete by Shapechange.

In one game, my 3.0 wizard was barred from learning Shapechange so as to avoid stepping on the Shifter's toes (rather, running his legs over with a steam roller). At around levels 15-17 (when the Shifter had unlimited changes), we found the Shifter to be a strong, but not usually overpowering character. In combat, the Shifter lacked the offensive power of other characters, and often had a lower armor class. The character was strong defensively (mostly because the character had a super pumped Con) and was very effective against spellcasters (Stone Golem form). On the other hand, the Shifter proved quite effective in destroying a set piece dungeon (3e'd version of Tomb of Horrors). He could burrow through areas, turn incorporeal to check for hidden areas around room, become a Golem for immunity to most traps, etc. Since the Shifter's player was named Steve, we started saying "We Steve the room." Because the DM looked to be getting somewhat upset, the player started holding back his abilities.

In short, the Shifter can be a strong support character and should be able to survive combat. He feeds on dungeon crawls, but can suffer a bit in a crazy teleport/scrying/big battle high level play. And Shapechange is like a slap in the face to Shifters.

Realistically, I'd give Shifters unlimited healing from shapechanging, because they can easily turn into things with Fast Healing 10 or more at that point.

 

[FrankTrollman]

In one game, my 3.0 wizard was barred from learning Shapechange so as to avoid stepping on the Shifter's toes (rather, running his legs over with a steam roller).

In practice, you'd have to kick the Druid in the butt as well.

Druids with Elemental Form and Huge Animal Form and all of their 8th level spell buffs and utility magic are stronger in combat and have more options available to them than Shifters do.

And I'm just not willing to nerf Core Classes so that an obscure PrC can have its moment in the sun. The Core Classes are better than the Shifter, which means that the Shifter just isn't good enough. If I felt the need to do anything, I'd give the Shifter a lot more abilities. But I really don't. There are a lot of PrCs, and I simply don't feel the need to fix all of the ones which are underpowered pompared to Core Classes.

I haven't fixed the Tempest either - I just don't play with it.

-Frank

 

[sithramir]

In practice, you'd have to kick the Druid in the butt as well.

Druids with Elemental Form and Huge Animal Form and all of their 8th level spell buffs and utility magic are stronger in combat and have more options available to them than Shifters do.

And I'm just not willing to nerf Core Classes so that an obscure PrC can have its moment in the sun. The Core Classes are better than the Shifter, which means that the Shifter just isn't good enough. If I felt the need to do anything, I'd give the Shifter a lot more abilities. But I really don't. There are a lot of PrCs, and I simply don't feel the need to fix all of the ones which are underpowered pompared to Core Classes.

I haven't fixed the Tempest either - I just don't play with it.

-Frank

I fixed all of them but you can't have them!

 

[Jubilex]

Since a 10th level Druid/10th level Shifter can use Greater Wild Shape an unlimited amount of times a day and as a move equivalent that does not provoke attacks of oppurtunity, the Shifter can constantly be changing form (twice a round) and healing himself 40hp's. Is this right?

Why twice a round?
I don't know anything about the Shifter PrC but I thought you could only take one move equivalent action in a round. You can make a full round movement to run but two move equivalend actions?

 

[Dinkeldog]

Why twice a round?
I don't know anything about the Shifter PrC but I thought you could only take one move equivalent action in a round. You can make a full round movement to run but two move equivalend actions?

In your standard action, you can take an actions you would take in a move-equivalent action.

 

[Mista Collins]

If a Druid casts Shapechange and has wild armor on, does that still work?
If the Druid has feats that allow him to still talk while in wildshape form would that still work if he casts Shapechange?

 

[FrankTrollman]

If a Druid casts Shapechange and has wild armor on, does that still work?
If the Druid has feats that allow him to still talk while in wildshape form would that still work if he casts Shapechange?

Perhaps unfortunately, the effects of Wildshape and the effects of Shapechange layer and stack.

So you can Wildshape yourself first and all of those bonuses would apply and then you can Shapechange into something else and you'll still be Wildshaped and have all of those bonuses.

So essentially - the answer is yes.

Example: A Druid has Natural Spell and WildArmor. He Wildshapes into a Tiger and gains the pounce ability, his armor melds into his form and he retains the armor bonus, and he can cast spells. Now he Shapechanges into a giant Ice Paraelemental Octopus and he still has the armor bonus (because it was already melded), he can still cast spells (because he's still wildshaped), and he still has the pounce ability (because Shapechange allows you to keep all of the Ex abilities you had).

That's quite probably not how it should work - but that is how it does work.

-Frank

 

[Dwarmaj]

When you Shapechange you loose your Su abilities (wildshape is Su) so I don't think Wildarmor will still work.

The wearer of a suit of armor or a shield with this ability preserves his armor bonus (and any enhancement bonus) while in a wild shape.

Ex abilities of forms you take also don't carry over from form to form. You get to keep racial or class based Ex abilities, but not assumed Ex abilities.

 

[FrankTrollman]

Wildshape is an ability with a duration. So even if the ability is lost, the Wildshape doesn't end. Similarly, Polymorphing - and by extension Wildshape - causes you to lose some of your Supernatural Abilities (which ones is not actually discussed in detail). Certainly Wildshaping in and of itself would not be expected to end itself.

Ex abilities of forms you take also don't carry over from form to form. You get to keep racial or class based Ex abilities, but not assumed Ex abilities.

The rules don't actually say that. They say that you keep all of your Extraordinary Abilities. That doesn't say or imply that you only keep the ones your have from any particular source.

-Frank