The shortbow - what is it good for?

[Bladesong]

I'm thinking about making the longbow a martial weapon when used to fire one arrow / round as a full attack action, but exotic if you want to fire multiple arrows / round [Full Attack] or one arrow / round [Standard Action]. Similar to the bastard sword's martial / exotic dual nature.

The low level army of longbowmen in the field won't behave any differently (firing one arrow from a fixed position). The high level fighter that picks up a longbow for the first time will know how to use it, but not to it's full potential.

Thoughts?

You could do this, but there should probably be more of a damage difference to make it more appealing; perhaps a d10 or at least 2d4 for a better average? Maybe a crit range of 19-20?

 

[Ryngard]

It was not real easy to use (not even a fighter could just pick one up and use it), it made movement difficult, it really was only "effective" at longer than short range, but it was devastating when scores of them were fired together at an approaching army (it was never really meant or used in "one-on-one" combat.

A Welsh or English military archer during the 14th and 15th Century was expected to shoot at least ten 'aimed shots' per minute. An experienced military longbowman was expected to shoot twenty aimed shots per minute. A typical military longbow archer would be provided with between 60 and 72 arrows at the time of battle, which would last the archer from three to six minutes, at full rate of fire. Young boys were often employed to run additional arrows to longbow archers while in their positions on the battlefield. "The longbow was the machine gun of the Middle Ages: accurate, deadly, possessed of a long range and rapid rate of fire, the flight of its missiles was likened to a storm.". This rate of fire was much higher than that of crossbows or any other projectile weapon of the period, including firearms.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_longbow

 

[Bladesong]

A Welsh or English military archer during the 14th and 15th Century was expected to shoot at least ten 'aimed shots' per minute. An experienced military longbowman was expected to shoot twenty aimed shots per minute. A typical military longbow archer would be provided with between 60 and 72 arrows at the time of battle, which would last the archer from three to six minutes, at full rate of fire. Young boys were often employed to run additional arrows to longbow archers while in their positions on the battlefield. "The longbow was the machine gun of the Middle Ages: accurate, deadly, possessed of a long range and rapid rate of fire, the flight of its missiles was likened to a storm.". This rate of fire was much higher than that of crossbows or any other projectile weapon of the period, including firearms.

The English gave them to untrained peasants. They weren't hard to use at all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_longbow

All accurate except for one thing, which your example actually points out, this was when shooting from groups of archers into large groups of individuals. This, unfortunately, is not how it normally gets used in D&D. You did not have to be precise (or trained) to fire into a tightly packed group of a hundred or more individuals to hit someone (how could you miss?!). Try looking up its use of one archer trying to hit a single moving target at almost any range; completely different story; even trained individuals found this difficult.
Your angle of fire is also almost always slightly up (because of its length), it would be very difficult to fire at someone directly in front of you. You would only be able to do so if you held the bow sideways, which was extremely difficult at best, yet this is how it usually gets used in-game.

The info we need to focus on, from your same source, is:
"The longbow had a long range and high accuracy, but not both at the same time. Modern champion archers maintain that you cannot 'guarantee' a hit on an individual target at more than 80 yards with any bow whatsoever. Most of the longer range shooting mentioned in stories was not marksmanship, but rather thousands of archers throwing volleys of arrows at an entire army. As they were aiming at a large mass at a particular distance, they could extend their range substantially. In its day, it was considered amazingly accurate and, by the standards of the day, it was. Standards for accuracy have changed dramatically, in the modern age... ... An archer could hit a person at 180 yards 'part of the time' and could always hit an army."

Have a great day!

 

[Felnar]

Try looking up its use of one archer trying to hit a single moving target at almost any range; completely different story; even trained individuals found this difficult.

Your angle of fire is also almost always slightly up (because of its length), it would be very difficult to fire at someone directly in front of you.

recently PBS re-airred an episode of NOVA, Secrets of Lost Empires: Medieval Siege, i which the effectiveness and range of trebuchets (in Britian, used against Welsh castles) was tested. At the beginning of the program they decided that trebuchets needed to be outside the range of a Welsh Longbow. A dummy trebuchet commander was set up and single longbowmen stood on the castle ramparts and fired at it. He was reasonably accurate at a couple hundred yards (as i recall, its been a few weeks). Because he never actually hit the dummy in his handful of shots, they had him shoot from 20ish feet away (to test damage) and his arrow when clear through the center of the period breastplate.

maybe any of that is useful in this conversation
it was a cool episode of NOVA either way

 

[Felix]

I know. Composite bows were invented for the very purpose of being used on horseback.

It's not as if many D&D characters fight from horseback, and when they do it's to twink out on lance charging goodness.

We ran up against the border skirmishers of this one nation who were mounted archers. They were mean sons-o-guns: it showed us what Mounted Archery could do for the Scout. They couldn't hack it in a pitched battle, but damn did they harry us to no good end.

And they used Shortbows, by the by.

 

[zerotkatama]

I could be wrong, but I believe that the Japanese Daikyu and Uma-yumi could be classifiedas composite longbows, and one (The Uma-Yumi I think) was used from horseback.

 

[Bladesong]

Because he never actually hit the dummy in his handful of shots, they had him shoot from 20ish feet away (to test damage) and his arrow when clear through the center of the period breastplate.

My apologies to the original author of this thread, I know this is off your topic now so I'll try not to insert any "non-subject matter" after this.

The episode you are speaking of, which was great as you said, was all about trying these items TODAY. Unfortunately it did not deal with some minor details. I, for instance, have a replica of the longbow that they found on the ship Mary Rose (I believe it was called, you can find reference to it on the link listed earlier in the thread and everyone should read the whole link if you really wish to be informed) and it's string distance is 6'9" . I am 6'2" and can fire straight ahead only if I almost rest the bow on the ground, the individual in the show actually used a shorter version of the bow, 6' I think. Unfortunately, the people of that time period usually stood just over 5' tall which means that the ground would be in the way of them holding it perpendicular to the ground; hence the slight angle up I mentioned earlier.

For the record, I can only pull it all the way back a few times before I am too tired to pull it again, and most of my friends cannot even pull it back once, so perhaps we should consider STRENGTH requirements as well.

Anyway, the link provided earlier should provide you with enough information to come up with your own ideas.

Good luck and have fun!

 

[Felnar]

Strength Requirement: this sparked my memory that i had seen a pdf about all bows/xbows being built for a specific strength and each strength had its own damage and range increment.
Discussion of Bows (linking to other communities is okay, right?)
possibly useful to Yair
also useful would be the DM playing up inconcealability/snagging, as mentioned above

about bow lengths: since roughly half the bows length extends above/below the top of the grip, it seems to me that the distance from my outstretched hand to the ground would only need to be 3.5 feet for me to shoot a 7 foot bow straight forward. This fits with the wiki articles "bowmen were still deadly at close range", even with 5 foot tall archers.
bladesong, i cant wrap my head around your needing to rest on the ground, but i cant say i've had a different experience. So i'll have to get back down to the local archery range and check it out for myself, i know they have some replica bows there.

 

[airwalkrr]

The shortbow - what is it good for?

Rogues.

Bards.

1st-level characters who can't afford a longbow.

Elf wizards with such a low strength that the extra lb. of a longbow would move them to the next encumbrance level (don't laugh, I've seen it happen).

 

[Mycanid]

Rogues.

Bards.

1st-level characters who can't afford a longbow.

Elf wizards with such a low strength that the extra lb. of a longbow would move them to the next encumbrance level (don't laugh, I've seen it happen).

Hey - what about halflings and gnomes who can't wield such a massive thing as a longbow? Helpful for them too.