D&D (2024) The sorcerer shouldn't exist

[Krachek]

For me a Ranger is a smart warrior, that learn to operate in hostile environment and fight dirty. Not a guy who use two weapon.

A warlord is a title for a character that have his personal army.
The character who heal his friend and move them around the battle grid is a mechanical feature.

 

[Yaarel]

It isn't - you're confusing D&D with Pathfinder.

Nonhuman magic is true for the 5e Sorcerer too.

Aberrant gains powers from Aberrations and the Far Realm.

Clockwork gets powers from Astral Plane, specifically the ethical alignment of Lawful.

Wild gets its powers from the Elemental Chaos.

Even Draconic is a kind of magic relating to the First World, and the entanglement of Dragons with the origins of the Material Plane.

Unless I am forgetting a subclass − every 5e Sorcerer subclass wields NONHUMAN powers.


Maybe the Sorcerer class concept is, exactly, PLANAR magic.

If the Wizard class concept is more specifically a "creator" − with Force Dunomancy, Elemental Evocation (including Earth magic), and Illusion quasi-real objects-

Then the Sorcerer might be more specifically an "otherworldly incarnate" − with Spacetime Divination/Teleportation and planar self-expressive Elemental Evocation, plus maybe Enchantment to "ensorcel" someone.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Nonhuman magic is true for the 5e Sorcerer too.

Aberrant gains powers from Aberrations and the Far Realm.

Clockwork gets powers from Astral Plane, specifically the ethical alignment of Lawful.

Wild gets its powers from the Elemental Chaos.

Even Draconic is a kind of magic relating to the First World, and the entanglement of Dragons with the origins of the Material Plane.

Unless I am forgetting a subclass − every 5e Sorcerer subclass wields NONHUMAN powers.

Although a place or a weather event is technically nonhuman it is not what is normally meant by the term. The Astral Plane and Elemental Chaos are places, Storm a place, and Aberrant Minds are arguable.

Cars are not themselves human but they are human technology despite using the magic or fuel of long dead dinosaurs to go. And part of what makes humans what we are is domestication, tool using, and the ability to use things beyond the capability of hairless apes.

 

[Yaarel]

Although a place or a weather event is technically nonhuman it is not what is normally meant by the term. The Astral Plane and Elemental Chaos are places, Storm a place, and Aberrant Minds are arguable.

The Astral Plane and the Elemental Chaos are more than "places". They are other levels of reality. Astral is a realm of thought.

It seems noncontroversial, where the Aberrant has gills, it is clearly nonhuman magic from the Aberrations of the Far Realm. The Farrealm is a kind of "Anti-Astral", where every thought that is antithetical to the stable reality of the multiverse gets suppressed.

I forgot about Storm. It can be Elemental Air, and in this sense a nonhuman magic. If so, I would like to see the Sorcerer exhibit features of an Air Elemental (or a Storm Giant), including gaseous form and at-will flight at higher levels.

Cars are not themselves human but they are human technology despite using the magic or fuel of long dead dinosaurs to go. And part of what makes humans what we are is domestication, tool using, and the ability to use things beyond the capability of hairless apes.

Yeah.

But we are talking about the Sorcerer and what would distinguish this class from the Wizard and from the Warlock. The Wizard would make a construct, such as a car. The Clockwork Sorcerer is something different, explicitly relating to the conceptual constructs of the planar ideal of Law, and its concept of parts within a collective universal machine.

 

[Yaarel]

I generally agree with the 5e philosophy of not having a bloated list of classes, like Pathfinder and earlier DnD editions, while also not being reductive and making giant umbrella classes. Sorcerers and Druids are two of my favorite classes and I tire of the push to just make them wizards or nature clerics. I want Psionics to be more than just casting spells without components.

So I don't think DnD should be adding more and more classes, there is space for a few more.

The 3e Psion is "just casting spells without components".

Then again, the 5e Psi Warrior lacks spellcasting. Its Psionic magic is mainly class features.

If the 5e Psion uses the Warlock chassis with short-rest spell points, then it can do both: innately cast spells with its spell points, and also have Psionic class feature (corresponding to Warlock invocations).

 

[Corinnguard]

Nonhuman magic is true for the 5e Sorcerer too.

This is very true for the Pathfinder sorcerer thanks to it's Bloodlines feature. PF1 even allows non-sorcerers some bloodline powers via it's Eldritch Heritage feat-chain.

 

[Yaarel]

Regarding 4e, I consider its design goal to be "rules first". Its highest priority was to create a game engine with balanced mechanics.

A secondary goal was to "consolidate" the sprawling D&D traditions into "salient" concepts. This resulted in mostly lumping different things together (such as Dray becomes Dragonborn), but sometimes splitting them (such as splitting Elf into three separate races − Elf, Eladrin, and Drow − each one a consolidation of many different kinds of Elves). This remix of D&D traditions generally worked well, but there were legitimate disputes about specific examples (such as Elf).

A less important goal might be the most consequential: "everything is core". If it exists somewhere in 4e, then it is true everywhere in 4e. This led to the updating of every D&D setting to include every feature in 4e, such as introducing Eladrin to Dark Sun (in a way that works really well!). This occasionally produced outcries especially from Forgotten Realms fans, when the 4e update was moreorless a wreckingball obsoleting and obliterating the extensive and intricate "canon" of Forgotten Realms.


I would describe 4e as:
• mechanics first
• concept second
• flavor last

The 4e mechanics were intentionally designed to invite players to reflavor any mechanic.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Regarding 4e, I consider its design goal to be "rules first". Its highest priority was to create a game engine with balanced mechanics.

A secondary goal was to "consolidate" the sprawling D&D traditions into "salient" concepts. This resulted in mostly lumping different things together (such as Dray becomes Dragonborn), but sometimes splitting them (such as splitting Elf into three separate races − Elf, Eladrin, and Drow − each one a consolidation of many different kinds of Elves). This remix of D&D traditions generally worked well, but there were legitimate disputes about specific examples (such as Elf).

A less important goal might be the most consequential: "everything is core". If it exists somewhere in 4e, then it is true everywhere in 4e. This led to the updating of every D&D setting to include every feature in 4e, such as introducing Eladrin to Dark Sun (in a way that works really well!). This occasionally produced outcries especially from Forgotten Realms fans, when the 4e update was moreorless a wreckingball obsoleting and obliterating the extensive and intricate "canon" of Forgotten Realms.


I would describe 4e as:
• mechanics first
• concept second
• flavor last

The 4e mechanics were intentionally designed to invite players to reflavor any mechanic.

Unsurprising then that it's my least favorite version of D&D.

 

[pemerton]

It's not anti-simulationism to point out that game settings are generally built to be played in games. Especially elements that are just variations or new takes on already existing game elements.

Shush, you're saying the soft bit loud!

 

[Yaarel]

Unsurprising then that it's my least favorite version of D&D.

I think 5e is:
• concept first − as defined by playtests
• flavor and mechanics about equally important − to synthesize old school "feel" with new school simulationist balance