D&D 5E The Sorcerer's Spells OR Do we want another magic class?

[Li Shenron]

Bards have been healing for quite a long while before 5e, even when they were quite clearly arcane rather than divine, and Clerics have had Word of Recall for even longer, so those particular ideas have been gone a long time. Just because 5e classes share many of the exact same spells in the mechanical sense doesn't mean they're using the exact same magic or are 'samey' in any other sense, it's just that spells that accomplish the same thing can recycle mechanics. Clerics still get their magic from the gods, wizards still get theirs from arcane knowledge, just as has always been the case.

I agree with all of this except point five.

While it is true there is no hard distinction (bard being the example) I still feel like there is a difference, its just that the bard can cast both kinds.

Thanks for a insightful post.

Thank you too!

Yes there is still a narrative difference... Clerics get spells from their deity, Warlocks from their patron, Druids from their bond with nature, Wizards from hard studies, Sorcerers just have them (but different origins are suggested by subclasses)... I think these thematic differences are very nice.

The point was that, having no official label "arcane" vs "divine", there is even less reason than before (I didn't think this was enough a reason even back in 3e) to think that Sorcerers should never have access to spells beyond their list.

Some Clerics "dip" from the Wizard spell list thanks to their domain, and some Druids do so thanks to their circle, but they are fixed spells, they cannot cherry-pick them. Bards (all of them) are given the option to cherry-pick a very few spells from anybody's list. Furthermore if you allow feats, there's a feat that lets even Fighters or Rogue learn spells from one chosen list.

These are just the precedents that make me say there shouldn't be anything wrong in creating a Sorcerer subclass that can learn a few spells from another class list. Narratively I think this would resonate pretty well with the idea that Sorcerers are born with magic inside, why not potentially any magic? Maybe you want narratively some spells to stay strictly with the realm of deities, as in "nobody can cast X unless a deity grants you the rights to do so", but why couldn't the deity occasionally give the rights to a Sorcerer instead of a Cleric, or why couldn't some Sorcerers in fact be divine themselves (see Favored Soul)? Mechanically there is always the possible reason of separating roles in the game, which is always fine by me, for instance to make sure that healing remains the defining feature of Cleric spellcasting. But we aren't suggesting here anything that would really tilt off the roles of all Sorcerers vs Clerics, only a possible specific subclass. I would be more concerned if we were talking about giving Wizards the same option, not narratively but mechanically, because they already have the edge over everyone else by having simultaneously the largest spell list + the largest number of spells known/knowable.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

I am curious what subclass features you would give ancestral, fated, and savant subclasses.

 

[Vael]

I am curious what subclass features you would give ancestral, fated, and savant subclasses.

It really depends on the story behind those words.

Ancestral asks "what ancestry?", and Dragon Magic definitely implies Draconic ancestry. A Fey Ancestry would imply different things than a Celestial or Arcane Ancestry.

Fated, depending on how you look at it, can almost suggest a Wild Sorcerer. Wild Sorcerers have more ways to manipulate dice, or Fate. A wild magic surge isn't actually random, that was meant to happen. But, ultimately, a Fated origin also requires some understanding into what the intended Fate of the character is.

Savant, probably implies innate skill or knowledge. So, divinations. Rather than take spells though, I like the idea of using Sorcery Points like Fate Points, allowing the Savant Sorcerer PC to make declarations about the world.

This is one of the main reasons I like Sorcerers so much. A lot of the story, and character come out of their magical origin.

 

[Tony Vargas]

These are just the precedents that make me say there shouldn't be anything wrong in creating a Sorcerer subclass that can learn a few spells from another class list. Narratively I think this would resonate pretty well with the idea that Sorcerers are born with magic inside, why not potentially any magic? Maybe you want narratively some spells to stay strictly with the realm of deities, as in "nobody can cast X unless a deity grants you the rights to do so", but why couldn't the deity occasionally give the rights to a Sorcerer instead of a Cleric, or why couldn't some Sorcerers in fact be divine themselves (see Favored Soul)?

Favored Soul seems like it would be a good example, that it should just cast from a divine list like Cleric or Paladin. It'd be just as logical for a Sorcerer with a Fey heritage to cast spells from a Fey-pact Warlock list, or one empowered by nature to cast from the Druid list. The Sorcerer is close to casting mostly from the Wizard list, but the Wizard still has some 30 spells that are unique to it, so even if a Sorcerer did cast from others' lists, it probably should avoid eating into their unique spells...

 

[steeldragons]

I am curious what subclass features you would give ancestral, fated, and savant subclasses.

Well, that would all depend on what the base class has as features as well. I prefer to create the class/subclasses from the ground up. But [MENTION=57043]Vael[/MENTION] 's suggestions are good places to begin when we'd get to the subclass stages.

Off the top of my head, I'd think something like this...
For base class elements, since we'd be removing the spell list, I'd just use the cantrips (as is) from any list, spell points, metamagic, some kind of innate magic detection, innate counterspelling/dispelling, and magic resistance.

Subclass, any subclass, then gets you your special/theme spells that you gain like bonus/domain/circle spells at certain levels. Let's just say for this hypothetical, 2 at 1st/3rd/5th/7th/9th.

Ancestral: I would probably add in a second tier of player choice here, like the warlock's Pact Boon. So [let's just say] Dragon/Fey/Genie. Then the rest of the powers are tailored to that lineage. There'd probably be some kind of transformation (a la dragon wings, but more than that) that each ancestry can undertake. A resistance of some kind, some kind of thematic capstone (breath weapon for a dragon, maybe dominating minds for a fey, maybe minor creation/wish type thing for a genie),...annnd a feature, in there someplace, of something to do with bolstering abilities via spell points. I'm seeing characters here that could be very up close/physical to very magical focused and pretty much anything in between. It depends on the play/concept/what the player wants.

Fated: I'm thinking the "accidental/reluctant hero" type. Even a Favored Soul isn't necessarily happy about their lot in life/didn't ask to be a favored soul. So, here, how about we go more martial/magic multi-class, whereas the "Ancestry MU" could be martial and some magic or magic and some martial, the "Fated MU" is more of a mix. Maybe features that involve more utility, some movement, more directly martial application of your magic (enhancing attacks and whatnot), and this is where you can pick a different spell list and pull from there. And, again, ways to use your spell points for better stuff.

Savant: These are your especially focused casters. Here is where you get your Pyromancers/Elementalists, your Storm Sorcerers, your Morgan La Faye/uber-enchantress, and so on. You choose a damage type or spell school and your magic has to come from that area only, regardless of what list it appears on. Here you are getting features that are specifically make your magic more powerful and useful. Simple as that. You gain another resistance/bolster your base class resistance. Add spell points to make your attack/save DC tougher. Maybe a feature that allows more spell choices than other subclasses get, or something akin to the wizard's signature spells...or something.

For ease of use, we could add in that second tier choice point, like in Ancestry, and just list out the energy damage types and spell schools as possible/suggested themes.

 

[Dit464]

Well, that would all depend on what the base class has as features as well. I prefer to create the class/subclasses from the ground up. But @Vael 's suggestions are good places to begin when we'd get to the subclass stages.

Off the top of my head, I'd think something like this...
For base class elements, since we'd be removing the spell list, I'd just use the cantrips (as is) from any list, spell points, metamagic, some kind of innate magic detection, innate counterspelling/dispelling, and magic resistance.

Subclass, any subclass, then gets you your special/theme spells that you gain like bonus/domain/circle spells at certain levels. Let's just say for this hypothetical, 2 at 1st/3rd/5th/7th/9th.

Ancestral: I would probably add in a second tier of player choice here, like the warlock's Pact Boon. So [let's just say] Dragon/Fey/Genie. Then the rest of the powers are tailored to that lineage. There'd probably be some kind of transformation (a la dragon wings, but more than that) that each ancestry can undertake. A resistance of some kind, some kind of thematic capstone (breath weapon for a dragon, maybe dominating minds for a fey, maybe minor creation/wish type thing for a genie),...annnd a feature, in there someplace, of something to do with bolstering abilities via spell points. I'm seeing characters here that could be very up close/physical to very magical focused and pretty much anything in between. It depends on the play/concept/what the player wants.

In very sorry in how I don't understand how this makes the sorcerer's class more unique, isn't their problem they are a bastardization of the other caster classes and don't have their own stand appart feature. I do find that some of these options seem like decent ideas but it doesn't seem like this changes anything (to me at least). That pretty much gives them almost the same exact features that a Draconic Bloodline Sorcerer has currently, admittedly I literally feel like vomiting when reading the Draconic Bloodline origin, but at that point why not just be a Dragonborn, for 1 more Cha point at lvl1 by being a different race?

Fated: I'm thinking the "accidental/reluctant hero" type. Even a Favored Soul isn't necessarily happy about their lot in life/didn't ask to be a favored soul. So, here, how about we go more martial/magic multi-class, whereas the "Ancestry MU" could be martial and some magic or magic and some martial, the "Fated MU" is more of a mix. Maybe features that involve more utility, some movement, more directly martial application of your magic (enhancing attacks and whatnot), and this is where you can pick a different spell list and pull from there. And, again, ways to use your spell points for better stuff.

So an EK... However I could see this option being a fun concept and depending on how it is carried out can be a good off-branching from making gish classes and having to play an EK for decent damaging spells when playing a shorter campaign.

Savant: These are your especially focused casters. Here is where you get your Pyromancers/Elementalists, your Storm Sorcerers, your Morgan La Faye/uber-enchantress, and so on. You choose a damage type or spell school and your magic has to come from that area only, regardless of what list it appears on. Here you are getting features that are specifically make your magic more powerful and useful. Simple as that. You gain another resistance/bolster your base class resistance. Add spell points to make your attack/save DC tougher. Maybe a feature that allows more spell choices than other subclasses get, or something akin to the wizard's signature spells...or something.

For ease of use, we could add in that second tier choice point, like in Ancestry, and just list out the energy damage types and spell schools as possible/suggested themes.

I bolded what made me cringe while reading, now I need some serious clarification, cause this is how I understand what you're saying. At least 2 resists as a class feature? That's definitely unique for casters, but lets look at the other features of the subclass. Lets look at a mid level character made only from the PHB, using a Half-Elf (the most common for classes using Cha) from going Savant, they get 2 resistances just by having this subclass, and have all the benefits that Half-Elf's get: advantage against sleep and charm, darkvision, proficiency in 2 skills of their choice. And then they are essentially a caster that can only take 1 Damage type or one school of magic, that either 1) screws them when they hit an enemy that is immune or resistant to said Damage type and are nearly useless in that fight or 2) They can only take spells of that school meaning the person that wanted to go into the Illusion School does virtually no damage, or that the person that is now going Evoker to not be pigeonholed like that won't be able to use any of the good utility spells that the rest of his party would rely on him to cast...ever. At this point I really don't see this being an option for anyone seriously wanting to be a sorcerer other than the fact you can get some resistances and spend spell points to make mobs auto-fail your spells, the ones you can cast at least.

This is at least how I have been able to interpret the post, if you find me too harsh or uninformed I would happily discuss this further.

 

[AtomicPope]

The problem with Sorcerers in 5e stems from the fact that other classes do it better. If you want panache you play a Warlock. If you want spell versatility you play a Wizard. If you want spells and just plain versatility you play a Bard. When all is said and done you can dip into those classes a few levels and you're still better off for it.

If Sorcerers had access to spells that seemed more like their personality manifesting in the world (Fireshield, Flame Blade, Storm of Vengeance) based on their origins then I believe there would be far less complaints (or more complaints of another sort). Sadly, that's not the case. It seems WotC understands this missed opportunity and is attempting to rectify the situation in their Unearthed Arcana Sorcerer Origins.

 

[Minigiant]

For more raw mage sorcerer I see something like this.

ARCANE ORBS
At the 2nd level, you can make an fist sized orb of pure arcane essence as an action. The arcane orb as no weight and glows with a faint aura in the same color of your magic aura as it revolves around you. You have a number of arcane orbs in existence equal to your sorcerer level, destroying the earliest created orb when you exceed your limit. If you die or enter another plane of existence, all your arcana orbs disappear. You can destroy one of your orbs as if manipulating a minor object as part of your action or movement.
As part of this action of creating a arcane orb or as a bonus action on your turn, you can spend sorcery points to alter one or more arcane orb.
You can spend sorcery points to make any number of arcana orbs shed bright light in a 10 ft radius at the cost of one sorcery point per orb.
You can energize and hurl an arcane orb. Make a ranged spell attack against a target within 60 ft. If the orb hits, the target takes 1d12 force damage per sorcery point invested into the arcane orb and the orb is destroyed. If the orb misses, it returns to you at the end of your turn .
You can turn an orb into a magical sensor for 2 sorcery points. You mentally receive visual information from a sensor orb, which has normal vision out 30 feet and can look in every direction. and can move up to 30 feet in any direction as an action. A solid barrier blocks the sensor orb's movement and 5 points of damage destroy it.

 

[steeldragons]

In very sorry in how I don't understand how this makes the sorcerer's class more unique,

I don't know if the point is to make the sorcerer "more unique." Their "unique" is innate magic, as supported by the metamagic and spell point mechanics that are their specific shtick. Both of those, obviously could use some beefing up and improvement to satisfy the sorcerer fans.

What I'm talking about is/would be a totally new take on "sorcerer." A rebirth/rebranding of "sorcerer" into something else. The sorcerer would be "dead", long live the <whatever this other new Innate Caster guy gets called that, purposely, isn't 'Sorcerer'>.

That flavor/"unique" side of things is kinda automatic/done. The bulk of the mechanical features we have in the Sorcerer base class seem more than capable and usable, if needing some tweaking and/or repositioning. Cantrips, spells known, and spell slot mechanics are seem usable as is. Leave the "choose your Origin at 1st level" as they are now, and makes the most sense. Throw in Ritual Casting maybe or some kind of spend a spell point for auto attunement or something like that to give them more "innate magic-user" flavor.

Again, keep in mind, this is all spit-balling off the top of my head. None of this is intended to be read/viewed as "complete/usable" mechanics or anything off the page. [Though, naturally, I am now leaning toward throwing something about it together into a PDF for folks who want to give a playtest-shakedown.]

isn't their problem they are a bastardization of the other caster classes and don't have their own stand appart feature.

Not to my knowledge. Again, their "stand apart feature" is the innate magic shtick. Metamagic and spell points, both set them apart. As for their "problem", what I keep seeing over and over from fans is that they are dissatisfied with the "amount" on the spell list. They want "moar." They aren't versatile enough (which makes sense, to me, from a design point since the wizard and bard already cover this niche). The fact this seems to be on purpose/by design is irrelevant to the folks that "want more." At the same time the complaints about wanting "more" come in, is the complaint that they are too "blaster and I don't want to have to play a blaster." This, I find, to be similarly overblown. But it's what folks say.

What I'm saying is, instead of approaching these perceived problems with "give me more spells to make me more special", I believe the "problems" are better resolved by giving the sorcerer less, more specific/specialized spell options.

Instead of saying, they should be adding "bonus spells" to all sorcerer subclasses (when, it seems evident they want to keep "bonus spells" as "something coming from an outside source" thing), say that every sorcerer should be getting their "bonus spells [from within]" and that's all. Every sorcerer doesn't need access to everything (spellwise) [keeping in mind "cuz I wants it" is the path that leads splat-bloated madness]. But letting every sorcerer-player/-concept have a means to access anything (spellwise) to achieve their concept. Once they have chosen what they'll have access to...they're done. That's what they get. As they advance, it's what they can DO with it that changes.

They can do more with less. They would have features in place [mechanics] that offer flexibility, versatility and utility through flexibility, rather than just needing "more" to get that flexibility and utility. The "Class that would be formerly known as Sorcerer" would have a "depth" of magic vs. a "breadth" of magic.

And that, in itself and additionally, sets CTWBFKA Sorcerer apart from the "arcane knowledge experts" (wizards) or the "cross-disciplinary dabblers" (bards) or the "got my arcane power from the outside" (warlocks).

I do find that some of these options seem like decent ideas but it doesn't seem like this changes anything (to me at least).

The devil [changes] would be in the details. Tweaks to the features. New features. Subtle alterations/broadening of the subclass archetypes. i.e., you dont' need to have a Dragon Origin Sorcerer and an Fey Origin Sorcerer and a Genie Origin Sorcerer...you just have the Ancestral Origin "Sorcerer." Yes, their specific parentage is going to give them different things, but the bulk of their abilities will be the same....because they're all getting these powers from their magical bloodline.

That pretty much gives them almost the same exact features that a Draconic Bloodline Sorcerer has currently, admittedly I literally feel like vomiting when reading the Draconic Bloodline origin, but at that point why not just be a Dragonborn, for 1 more Cha point at lvl1 by being a different race?

Well, cuz the player wants to play a sorcerer. If the player's character concept is "I want to play a dragon-person" and not "I want to play an innately magical person/use magic in the game [cuz my grandpappy had sex with a magic lizard]"...then yeah. Sure. Play a dragonborn of some/any other class.

So an EK...

Sure, I suppose...akin to it. And the Bard. And a Blade-Pacted Warlock. And any warrior class that multiclasses into a spellcasting class or takes a Magic Initiate feat. And any spellcaster that multiclasses into a warrior class or takes a Martial Adept feat. Yes. It is/would be like that. 5e gives you lots of different ways of getting to a similar concept. You just take the one you [think you'll] like best, a.k.a. "will be the most fun to play."

However I could see this option being a fun concept and depending on how it is carried out can be a good off-branching from making gish classes and having to play an EK for decent damaging spells when playing a shorter campaign.

Sure. Probably. I was more going for, as the 5e design seems about, establishing [without "forcing"] differentiation between a class's archetypes. In addition to another avenue to "gish" [gods I hate that term], if the Fated becomes the more martial/magic-mix one, then that sets it off in one more way than just origin, from its more "castery" or more "either/or" compatriots. It helps give the archetype a reason to exist, moreso than just some corner case character concept that a subset(handful) of a subset(sorcerer players) like.

I bolded what made me cringe while reading,

Well, I do apologize. I had no intentions of making anyone "cringe." Though Halloween is upon us. So, I guess, "BOO!"

now I need some serious clarification, cause this is how I understand what you're saying. At least 2 resists as a class feature?

Yeah. Probably. Again, spit-balling/brainstorming/"throwing it out there." If we build a type of magic resistance into the base class: whether that, mechanically, is actually a damage reduction "resistance", advantage to saves, proficiency to saves, or any combination there of. Then, sure, in the subclass why not allow some kind of energy resistance to "Dragon Ancestry Sorcerers" with fire breath or lightning resistance to storm sorcerers or radiant (or necrotic) resistance to Favored Souls or advantage against saves vs. illusion from Fey-Ancestry or Enchantment/Illusion-Savants? All makes good thematic sense to me.

That's definitely unique for casters, but lets look at the other features of the subclass. Lets look at a mid level character made only from the PHB, using a Half-Elf (the most common for classes using Cha) from going Savant, they get 2 resistances just by having this subclass,

No no. They have one resistance from their base class ("The Class [that would be] Formerly Known As Sorcerer") and one from their subclass.

and have all the benefits that Half-Elf's get:

Part of the class design game. Even whether you are designing with race in mind or not, there are some races that will naturally gain mechanical advantage in one way or another. All you can do is "balance" [which I find to be a self-perpetuated delusion anyway] things as best you can. In the case of classes, you balance it against the other classes and their features. You do not "balance"classes against races...or vice versa. People that want to find loopholes or exploit/abuse bonuses or whatever, are going to do that. You can't stop them.

a advantage against sleep and charm, darkvision, proficiency in 2 skills of their choice.

So? That's about their race. If I want to play a half-elf, then sure, I get that. If I don't want to play a half-elf, because that's not the character concept I have, I want to be a gnome [or whatever]! I'm not going to [nor does the game, itself, anywhere suggest you should] be half-elf just because I get "xyz."

That is a differing perspective of playstyle that indicates, it is entirely likely, you and I will not be able to come to a "clarity" of vision here because we are approaching the game, class design, character creation, et al. from two completely different angles. But let's keep going and see how it goes.

And then they are essentially a caster that can only take 1 Damage type or one school of magic,

Well, EK's and Arcane Tricksters each get two...so maybe we open it up to two schools...but, yes, for the thematic purposes, 1 damage type. That would seem to make sense.

that either 1) screws them when they hit an enemy that is immune or resistant to said Damage type and are nearly useless in that fight

Yes. That would be challenging. I do not adhere to the idea this is "bad" or that any character is EVER "useless" in a fight. When a [just because it's so popular nowadays], let's say, an Ice [Savant] Sorceress wanders into some place that has a monster immune to ice/cold damage? No, she can't cause damage directly to the beast. Yeah, she'd better start getting creative in her choices and magic-use. Stay in the back. Assist the others. Make a Wall of Ice to hold it back. Cause a Sleet/Ice Storm to cover a retreat or just confuse/blind it while your friends get into a better attack positions or prep some fire attacks. Hit it with Ray of Frost to slow it down while knowing you're not taking away HP...but you're most certainly not "useless" in the fight just because your magic isn't going to do "cold damage" against this creature.

or 2) They can only take spells of that school meaning the person that wanted to go into the Illusion School does virtually no damage,

Right. If you want to be an Illusion-based Innate Magic-worker, your goal is deception, creativity, trickery, getting past/through without being noticed and, if you're using your magic well, not having a single combat. That's what the character is/can do. If you want a "blaster sorcerer", you're not going to pick an Illusion-based MU. Maybe, occasionally, deal a bit of psychic damage, but mostly you're looking to inflict conditions or, as I said, avoid confrontation entirely.

or that the person that is now going Evoker to not be pigeonholed like that won't be able to use any of the good utility spells that the rest of his party would rely on him to cast...ever.

Yes. That is, again, a player choice to make. A choice point in character creation. If you want to be an evoker with versatility and utility spells...then you go be a wizard. If you want to be an "evoker blaster", then you can specialize as a Wizard Evoker, or be an Evocation specialized "TCFKASorcerer"...because you want to be a BLASTER and that's it.

At this point I really don't see this being an option for anyone seriously wanting to be a sorcerer other than the fact you can get some resistances and spend spell points to make mobs auto-fail your spells, the ones you can cast at least.

Right. It'll be a sorcerer class for people that want to be this kind of sorcerer: good with magic that does this one [style/theme/array] thing. Yes. If you don't like it, there are a minimum of 2 other subclass archetypes with a myriad of other origin story/options kinds of "TCFKAS" for you to be...and if you don't like those then there are other "casting classes" for you to choose from.

Any given class/subclass doesn't [and can not realistically ever] offer all things to all people. To expect any one of them to is utter folly.

The object here, from what I've heard (and liked) in the thread, is to present a "generic caster" class, with options of varying difficulty/complexity, like the Fighter: Champion/BM/EK.

This is at least how I have been able to interpret the post, if you find me too harsh or uninformed I would happily discuss this further.

Well, I hope I have informed better, somewhat. Whether you "get it" or not, I can not guarantee. And I have certainly read (and received) harsher. So no worries there.

 

[Dit464]

That flavor/"unique" side of things is kinda automatic/done. The bulk of the mechanical features we have in the Sorcerer base class seem more than capable and usable, if needing some tweaking and/or repositioning. Cantrips, spells known, and spell slot mechanics are seem usable as is. Leave the "choose your Origin at 1st level" as they are now, and makes the most sense. Throw in Ritual Casting maybe or some kind of spend a spell point for auto attunement or something like that to give them more "innate magic-user" flavor.

Again, keep in mind, this is all spit-balling off the top of my head. None of this is intended to be read/viewed as "complete/usable" mechanics or anything off the page. [Though, naturally, I am now leaning toward throwing something about it together into a PDF for folks who want to give a playtest-shakedown.]

Hell ill volunteer to try it out.

Not to my knowledge. Again, their "stand apart feature" is the innate magic shtick. Metamagic and spell points, both set them apart. As for their "problem", what I keep seeing over and over from fans is that they are dissatisfied with the "amount" on the spell list. They want "moar." They aren't versatile enough (which makes sense, to me, from a design point since the wizard and bard already cover this niche). The fact this seems to be on purpose/by design is irrelevant to the folks that "want more." At the same time the complaints about wanting "more" come in, is the complaint that they are too "blaster and I don't want to have to play a blaster." This, I find, to be similarly overblown. But it's what folks say.

What I'm saying is, instead of approaching these perceived problems with "give me more spells to make me more special", I believe the "problems" are better resolved by giving the sorcerer less, more specific/specialized spell options.

Instead of saying, they should be adding "bonus spells" to all sorcerer subclasses (when, it seems evident they want to keep "bonus spells" as "something coming from an outside source" thing), say that every sorcerer should be getting their "bonus spells [from within]" and that's all. Every sorcerer doesn't need access to everything (spellwise) [keeping in mind "cuz I wants it" is the path that leads splat-bloated madness]. But letting every sorcerer-player/-concept have a means to access anything (spellwise) to achieve their concept. Once they have chosen what they'll have access to...they're done. That's what they get. As they advance, it's what they can DO with it that changes.

They can do more with less. They would have features in place [mechanics] that offer flexibility, versatility and utility through flexibility, rather than just needing "more" to get that flexibility and utility. The "Class that would be formerly known as Sorcerer" would have a "depth" of magic vs. a "breadth" of magic.

The devil [changes] would be in the details. Tweaks to the features. New features. Subtle alterations/broadening of the subclass archetypes. i.e., you dont' need to have a Dragon Origin Sorcerer and an Fey Origin Sorcerer and a Genie Origin Sorcerer...you just have the Ancestral Origin "Sorcerer." Yes, their specific parentage is going to give them different things, but the bulk of their abilities will be the same....because they're all getting these powers from their magical bloodline.

Sure. Probably. I was more going for, as the 5e design seems about, establishing [without "forcing"] differentiation between a class's archetypes. In addition to another avenue to "gish" [gods I hate that term], if the Fated becomes the more martial/magic-mix one, then that sets it off in one more way than just origin, from its more "castery" or more "either/or" compatriots. It helps give the archetype a reason to exist, moreso than just some corner case character concept that a subset(handful) of a subset(sorcerer players) like.

Yeah. Probably. Again, spit-balling/brainstorming/"throwing it out there." If we build a type of magic resistance into the base class: whether that, mechanically, is actually a damage reduction "resistance", advantage to saves, proficiency to saves, or any combination there of. Then, sure, in the subclass why not allow some kind of energy resistance to "Dragon Ancestry Sorcerers" with fire breath or lightning resistance to storm sorcerers or radiant (or necrotic) resistance to Favored Souls or advantage against saves vs. illusion from Fey-Ancestry or Enchantment/Illusion-Savants? All makes good thematic sense to me.

Yes this is you spit-balling and you are providing more than just, "Sorcerer should be changed because I dislike X." Which is more than I'm doing, hopefully I am helping you rationalize whats too powerful and what may need another look and small tweak. I'm starting to see what you were doing to help the class evolve, not just tossing them more spells off of the Wizard's spell list.

Part of the class design game. Even whether you are designing with race in mind or not, there are some races that will naturally gain mechanical advantage in one way or another. All you can do is "balance" [which I find to be a self-perpetuated delusion anyway] things as best you can. In the case of classes, you balance it against the other classes and their features. You do not "balance"classes against races...or vice versa. People that want to find loopholes or exploit/abuse bonuses or whatever, are going to do that. You can't stop them.

Yeah I know, it just seems way too strong to have two resistances as a class feature, advantage against these saves seems more appropriate perhaps resistance to a dmg type and then advantage against a condition or block of spells. It's not me wanting to balance classes and races, some of these combos are what makes playing a character fun, playing a Minotaur (Valor) Bard using a cowbell is hilarious and not that bad in a scrap either.

Well, EK's and Arcane Tricksters each get two...so maybe we open it up to two schools...but, yes, for the thematic purposes, 1 damage type. That would seem to make sense.

If you do open it up to 2 schools this fixes the need to choose utility or damage. The one damage type works thematically, although I wish some damage types were more plentiful.

Yes. That would be challenging. I do not adhere to the idea this is "bad" or that any character is EVER "useless" in a fight. When a [just because it's so popular nowadays], let's say, an Ice [Savant] Sorceress wanders into some place that has a monster immune to ice/cold damage? No, she can't cause damage directly to the beast. Yeah, she'd better start getting creative in her choices and magic-use. Stay in the back. Assist the others. Make a Wall of Ice to hold it back. Cause a Sleet/Ice Storm to cover a retreat or just confuse/blind it while your friends get into a better attack positions or prep some fire attacks. Hit it with Ray of Frost to slow it down while knowing you're not taking away HP...but you're most certainly not "useless" in the fight just because your magic isn't going to do "cold damage" against this creature.

Oh I understand why you'd hate thinking a character is useless in a fight, I hate that notion too. And although you can help your party from a utility standpoint, some parties may rely on the sorcerer's DPR to speed up and finish fights.

Right. If you want to be an Illusion-based Innate Magic-worker, your goal is deception, creativity, trickery, getting past/through without being noticed and, if you're using your magic well, not having a single combat. That's what the character is/can do. If you want a "blaster sorcerer", you're not going to pick an Illusion-based MU. Maybe, occasionally, deal a bit of psychic damage, but mostly you're looking to inflict conditions or, as I said, avoid confrontation entirely.

The point I was making here is sometimes it's not entirely possible to avoid fights, and yes while I love illusionists and making my DM bang his head against the table when I roll one up, the school itself is less reliable in fighting and sometimes you aren't able to blind or hallucinate the mob before you pass it and therefore you need to have some other spell variability. I feel that I should make the point that I often play solo or duo campaigns.

Any given class/subclass doesn't [and can not realistically ever] offer all things to all people. To expect any one of them to is utter folly.

True although bard does let you get pretty close.