D&D 5E The Sorcerer's Spells OR Do we want another magic class?

[Minigiant]

- As I said in the other thread, it would be nice if the Sorcerer's thematic concept of "born with magic inside" would be fully embraced, and the class was designed without access to close-form, ready-made "spells" as everybody else, but instead with access to basic powers (such as "illusion", "charm", "fire", "transmutation", "life", "teleportation", "invisibility", "summoning" etc.) and capable of using them to create flexible ad-hoc effect dynamically during the game. Unfortunately this is was too far away from the rules of magic in D&D, so it would be a major design effort, and too few people would be interested to think WotC would ever do that.

- A whole new class would be an addition that doesn't invalidate the core, but it would also compete directly with the core Sorcerer's concept. Instead, I'd be fine with a Sorcerer subclass that might explore the previous concept of flexible raw magic (presumably based on spell points, but not necessarily). But while it would be nice, it's still a fairly significant design effort as a subclass; so it might be to add new ways to represent this raw/basic approach to magical effects through new subclasses that still build on existing mechanics.

That's kinda what I was getting to.

I wouldn't want a redesign for Sorcerer. The time for that was not even 5th edition. It was 4th. The history is set.

But I would love a new mage that is not tied to the spellcasting history. A mage class were spells are optional and instead you have a "fire" power or "illusion" power. Maybe finally D&D dip into a mana system.

Like the character can create a orb of fire. Then they could make it brighter for a torch, throw it as an attack, flatten it as a flame shield, or force it into a weapon for fire damage. Higher levels let you turn it into an elemental or a wall of fire.

 

[Mercule]

I think the problem is you are stuck inside this "origin" bit. Nothing wrong with that, but we really need a "I don't know and I don't care were my magic came from and it doesn't have any effect".

Agreed. This was the 3E Sorcerer. One theory presented was that the power came from dragon blood, but there was no game effect. I get where people who want to play dragon blooded characters might want more fluffy-crunch, but we never did. In fact, other than the "let's see how far we can push the rules before we break" half-dragon/half-dwarf sorcerer/paladin, my group ignored the dragon-blooded origin story as somewhat of an outlier.

Using just the 5E PHB, we're stuck with either dragon blood or wild magic. I want wild magic kept about 5 counties away from my game, as do most of my players (no idea about the power level, just don't like the concept). So... we're left with a class exclusively useful for "grandpappy was a lizard". That's just, flat out, not worth having a separate class. Add in the Favored Soul and Storm Sorcerer and things get a bit more interesting. Still questionable whether we need both Sorcerer (born with or granted access to an odd source of power) and Warlock (granted access to an odd source of power).

The old breakdown for the arcane casters was mechanical: Wizard = full Vancian planning, with lots of breadth but very fine resource management; Sorcerer = light planning, pick a focus then manage how hard to swing your hammer each time; Warlock = no planning, minor customization and all abilities always available. The 5E Wizard has assailed the Sorcerer's 3E niche from one side (a good change, IMO) and the Warlock from the other (debatable, IMO). The flavor could be substantively split, but aren't. Either do so or kill one.

 

[Li Shenron]

That's kinda what I was getting to.

I wouldn't want a redesign for Sorcerer. The time for that was not even 5th edition. It was 4th. The history is set.

But I would love a new mage that is not tied to the spellcasting history. A mage class were spells are optional and instead you have a "fire" power or "illusion" power. Maybe finally D&D dip into a mana system.

Like the character can create a orb of fire. Then they could make it brighter for a torch, throw it as an attack, flatten it as a flame shield, or force it into a weapon for fire damage. Higher levels let you turn it into an elemental or a wall of fire.

Yes, although my current idea is to try and implement that as a Sorcerer subclass, instead of a whole new class.

Not sure which of the two requires more design work. Starting from scratch might be easier, but then you have to balance the class at each level against the rest of the game. Perhaps you also need to find another narrative niche for that, meaning that the Sorcerer's narrative concept will be squeezed further between the Wizard and the new class.

So I'd prefer if they try that as a subclass. Basically it means that only partially you will be able to cast raw magic. As a Sorcerer subclass, you still cast your spells normally, and this "raw magic" would be in addition. It might be then easier to balance it, when it is limited to being only an addition. And we could re-use the spell points mechanic as a mana system, with no need for another mechanic. This subclass could be such that it gains some of those flexible "raw powers" (from a list), and pay with spell points when using them.

Narratively (i.e. concept-wise) we could still see the Sorcerer as the one who has in-born magic, although normally still capable only to manifest it in a few specific and regimented forms (i.e. spells) with some degree of flexibility (i.e. metamagic); some Sorcerers (the "raw mage" subclass) learn to go further (or "to go backwards") and break down the spells into their elements, and from there create new effects or combinations.

 

[Minigiant]

Yes, although my current idea is to try and implement that as a Sorcerer subclass, instead of a whole new class.

Not sure which of the two requires more design work. Starting from scratch might be easier, but then you have to balance the class at each level against the rest of the game. Perhaps you also need to find another narrative niche for that, meaning that the Sorcerer's narrative concept will be squeezed further between the Wizard and the new class.

So I'd prefer if they try that as a subclass. Basically it means that only partially you will be able to cast raw magic. As a Sorcerer subclass, you still cast your spells normally, and this "raw magic" would be in addition. It might be then easier to balance it, when it is limited to being only an addition. And we could re-use the spell points mechanic as a mana system, with no need for another mechanic. This subclass could be such that it gains some of those flexible "raw powers" (from a list), and pay with spell points when using them.

Narratively (i.e. concept-wise) we could still see the Sorcerer as the one who has in-born magic, although normally still capable only to manifest it in a few specific and regimented forms (i.e. spells) with some degree of flexibility (i.e. metamagic); some Sorcerers (the "raw mage" subclass) learn to go further (or "to go backwards") and break down the spells into their elements, and from there create new effects or combinations.

I would do both the raw mage sorcerer and wizard-lite sorcerer as sorcerer origins.

My biggest complaint on 5e is classes with only 2 subclasses with easy ones from the past not used.

You could have a raw sorcerer as an " Arcane Wellspring" who can spend sorcery points to create items of force like walls, wings, discs, and tendrils.

Then do the "Essence Mage", " Archive of Spells", or "Sorcerous Savant" who can spend points to "dig into that Aether/Weave/Fade" to temporarily learn any spell.

 

[Li Shenron]

My biggest complaint on 5e is classes with only 2 subclasses with easy ones from the past not used.

Mine too. At least some of them get multiple options within one subclass (Hunter, Totem Warrior...) but I was sorry for Bards and Sorcerers. Furthermore, both the 'draconic' sorcerer and the wild mage subclasses are a little bit too much specific IMHO. So the Sorcerer class is truly the only class that doesn't have a thematically generic (or 'light') subclass option in core: everyone wanting to play a Sorcerer out of the PHB has to choose between sprouting dragon wings or occasionally explode... At least I welcome the Storm Sorcerer as something relatively more down to earth.

 

[Parmandur]

Yeah, Sorcerers have enough room for archetypes as the Cleric or Wizard; seems we will be seeing more over time, particularly with one Element (Air) now getting a whole subclass.

 

[steeldragons]

I'm wondering if, perhaps, we're coming/looking at this from the "wrong side", so to speak. [Not "wrong", obviously, but in the sense of "mistaken"]

That is, instead of looking at the bonus spell/Sorcerer situation and saying, "Why/How do we get more [specific/powerful/thematic] spells into the classes?"

...what if we said..., "How do we get less?"

What if the secret to a cool sorcerer class isn't adding in bonus spells or changing their spell list(s) selections?

What if the Sorcerer gains their magic working "powers" through their class(and subclass) features and, instead of choosing from any spell list at all, are given specific "thematic/origin spells"...and that's all. They could be from the wizard/cleric/druid spell lists. Doesn't matter. You are an "Elementalist" sorcerer, here's your spells you get and can "play with" through your class features, metamagic, spell points, etc...

The "caster" base class that's been suggested in the other sorcerer thread (I think it was another thread) that doesn't even "get spells", per se. They have these various magical effects they just make happen...and shape and change and transform from one thing to another in ways no wizard or warlock, or druid or cleric, for that matter, can. Kind of closest (though still not close) to Bards, really. Akin to just making magic happen out of music, these new casters, we could call them...I dunno...Magic-Users (hmmm, where have I heard that...?) just make magic happen (as relates to their origin story/theme) out of "[the magic in the] thin air."

Now, this, obviously requires a complete overhaul and homebrewed rewrite of the whole class...and as Li Shenron says, expecting or askign for a ground up rewrite that is less than realistic. But as a homebrew, I could totally see this...might even result in allowing a "sorcerer-style" class into my campaign world. Or, with relatively little refluffing, it could work as an independent class...again, could certainly be fun but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it in any "official release/core" way. It could certainly be done as a new Sorcerer subclass within the existing system...if you're willing to houserule out the base Sorcerer's spell casting-like-everyone-else and class-specific spell list.

 

[the Jester]

The sorcerer is fine as is.

 

[steeldragons]

The sorcerer is fine as is.

Oh, I agree. There's nothing that needs changing. And there are certainly TONS of subclass archetypes that can be written/reworked in the existing class very easily.

BUT, having not ever liked the Sorcerer or thought the whole "casting mechanic justifies the creation of this other class" thing was total bogus, this thought of a re-approaching and redefining them into something that is actually different and useful appeals to me (and preferably not/no longer called "Sorcerers" since we all know, that's a 7th level MU .

It is, rather, something of a paradigm shift for D&D. But the idea of making them a completely new base-class that can sit as the "most general magic user", I think that opens up a lot of design-space...for the both the existing and creating new mechanics and distinct flavor.

It seems, imo, this could really make the Sorcerer something more widely used and, if not liked, appreciated...and since the somewhat fanatical sorcerer folks haven't seemed to be happy with it from the playtest on...why not give something different a try?

Like I said, none of this, obviously is every going to be "official"...it's just fun mental/creative exercising [for some of us] that anyone else can choose to incorporate or not.

 

[Minigiant]

. Furthermore, both the 'draconic' sorcerer and the wild mage subclasses are a little bit too much specific IMHO. So the Sorcerer class is truly the only class that doesn't have a thematically generic (or 'light') subclass option in core: everyone wanting to play a Sorcerer out of the PHB has to choose between sprouting dragon wings or occasionally explode... At least I welcome the Storm Sorcerer as something relatively more down to earth.

I am a bit upset there isn't a College of Death for bards for my troupe of ninja musician drow. Don't get me started on rangers and barbarians.

But the generic sorcerer is a shock not existing. But it wouldn't have to be too light.

Glowing eyes with magical sight
Visible magic aura to defend against magical creatures.
The standard zappity zap beam of energy
Short gusts of infused energy.