The Stakes of Classifying Games as Rules Lite, Medium, or Heavy?

[Cadence]

It relates to my concern very much, because it PERFECTLY illustrates the absolute arrogance associated with a large segment of RPG fandom which seems to consider itself the absolute arbiter of what is acceptable, mainstream, etc. That poster simply dismissed not even a genre or classification of RPGs, but essentially everything not produced by those he seems to favor as irrelevant trash with a metaphorical wave of the hand.

If most people using a product are doing so in the same way (which of course could be untrue of many ttrpgs to me), isn't something that dominates market share definitionally mainstream?

EDIT: On further consideration, "among those participating in or familiar with that market" anyway. If it's a small market, then not necessarily among folks at large.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

If most people using a product are doing so in the same way (which of course could be untrue of many ttrpgs to me), isn't something that dominates market share definitionally mainstream?

EDIT: On further consideration, "among those participating in or familiar with that market" anyway. If it's a small market, then not necessarily among folks at large.

I just think that the idea that there's some ultra-dominant idea about what RPGs are and how they are played is dubious at best. Yes, D&D sells quite well, for example, but does that mean everyone that buys a D&D book is only interested in one form of game? Or that the majority of people don't also play various other types of games? Even if the lion's share is just D&D and a few other games conceptually similar to it, IME lots of people enjoy, and might even rather play, other types of games. It seems like if there's an obligation to inform your audience it is thus hard to say that only certain games are so obligated. Who gets to decide that?

Anyway, this is all pretty much a digression from the thread topic, and in any case none of our opinions are going to register much on game developers. Its not like I feel compelled to try to convince anyone of anything, I was just pointing it out.

 

[Aldarc]

If most people using a product are doing so in the same way (which of course could be untrue of many ttrpgs to me), isn't something that dominates market share definitionally mainstream?

EDIT: On further consideration, "among those participating in or familiar with that market" anyway. If it's a small market, then not necessarily among folks at large.

To add to @AbdulAlhazred's salient question about whether people buying D&D are only interested in one form of game:

It's worth pointing out that one of the major points of friction that some people have with 5e D&D on this forum stems from trying to run 5e D&D like past editions of D&D. Or sometimes discussions suggest these issues/problems are ignored or deemed irrelevant because they will use and abuse 5e D&D how they see fit regardless of the RAW or RAI of 5e D&D. Or lots of queries about how to use 5e D&D to run X, Y, or Z styles of games.

I admit that part of my reluctance to play 5e D&D with strangers, rather than my usual friend circles, stems from how diverse house rules, playstyles, and play principles can be between 5e D&D game tables.

 

[pemerton]

Yeah, I just don't remember doing anything at all with weapon speed factors unless there was a tie, etc.

The "speed factors on a tie" rule is from Gygax's DMG. I don't think it made it into 2nd ed AD&D, as per @Staffan and @Cadence upthread.

 

[pemerton]

As I've said repeatedly, they should be written so that the users are prepared for the things that are liable to work poorly with a lot of people.

<snip>

Why should it be someone who makes a power tool's task to warn users of its risk? Because you're paying them money to get it and time to use it.

Comparing a RPG to a power tool is unhelpful. RPGs don't actually pose any risks (unless you believe the mid-80s hype).

What's the actual risk of PbtA vs (say) D&D? None that I can see. D&D, as widely approached (at least based on my experience and reading) kinda sucks if I want to do something other than go along with the GM's story. AW kinda sucks if I want the GM to tell me a story. Which one is more likely to "work poorly for a lot of people"? I'm not sure the question is even meaningful.

 

[payn]

I also disagree that designers should feel compelled to meet existing expectations when following up on a previous property particularly if they are interested in serving other audiences. I count among my very favorite game Vampire The Requiem Second Edition, Exalted Third Edition, Legend of the Five Rings Fifth Edition, and Pathfinder Second Edition. All represent major breaks from previous iterations. All are phenomenally better games for it. On a creative level their design quality is way better than their forbearers.

I think we can question if they made right decisions for commercial success, but as compelling play experiences all are first rate which is more than can be said for the game lines they descend from.

IDK, despite some less than great design, I still love games from the 60,70,80's. There is an element that makes a game come alive that isnt tangible. You can make the best designed game possible, but if it doesn't give the expected experience, folks are not going to like it. You can also keep the feel and brand while designing a sound game. You dont have to jettison what came before or go left field to make things better.

 

[Aldarc]

Comparing a RPG to a power tool is unhelpful. RPGs don't actually pose any risks (unless you believe the mid-80s hype).

What's the actual risk of PbtA vs (say) D&D? None that I can see. D&D, as widely approached (at least based on my experience and reading) kinda sucks if I want to do something other than go along with the GM's story. AW kinda sucks if I want the GM to tell me a story. Which one is more likely to "work poorly for a lot of people"? I'm not sure the question is even meaningful.

Warning: "PbtA games will severely impair your power as a GM to railroad players through curated adventures. Also, there are no d20s or GM rolls. Advise with caution."

 

[Cadence]

It's worth pointing out that one of the major points of friction that some people have with 5e D&D on this forum stems from trying to run 5e D&D like past editions of D&D. Or sometimes discussions suggest these issues/problems are ignored or deemed irrelevant because they will use and abuse 5e D&D how they see fit regardless of the RAW or RAI of 5e D&D. Or lots of queries about how to use 5e D&D to run X, Y, or Z styles of games.

I admit that part of my reluctance to play 5e D&D with strangers, rather than my usual friend circles, stems from how diverse house rules, playstyles, and play principles can be between 5e D&D game tables.

I haven't played 5e with tons of different groups and in the few I've been in it's mostly been which of the optional rules in the book are allowed. Which parts of RAW and RAI in 5e have you seen ignored or house ruled most? (In part, to find out which part of the rules I missed in skimming them over before running things myself...)

 

[Aldarc]

I haven't played 5e with tons of different groups and in the few I've been in it's mostly been which of the optional rules in the book are allowed. Which parts of RAW and RAI in 5e have you seen ignored or house ruled most? (In part, to find out which part of the rules I missed in skimming them over before running things myself...)

Respectfully, what does this matter for the point being made? This forum certainly evidences a number of intentional or unintentional points of divergence from 5e RAW/RAI.

 

[Cadence]

Respectfully, what does this matter for the point being made? This forum certainly evidences a number of intentional or unintentional points of divergence from 5e RAW/RAI.

You seemed to say that such changes were so common that you didn't even like to play 5e outside your usual playgroup. Is it a lot moreso than other games? (Are there any games on here we haven't seen some disagreements over?) So I was curious what the most common few seemed to be for 5e in your opinion. In part, because I'm wondering if I do some RAW/RAI breaking when I DM. I'll go looking around on my own later when I get time (and start a thread about it if it proves to be really scattered).