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The Superman Returns spoiler thread.

mmu1 said:
As far as the crystals go - unless he's got some super homing-sense, how would he find them? Without talking to Kitty or Luthor, he won't even know where they ended up.
If I remember correctly, Kitty brushed them out of the chopper door on the island of kryptonite-infused crystal. So presumably, they were hurtled into space along with the rest of the rock.

I seem to recall them splashing into water, but assume that had to be a puddle on the island, rather than actual ocean, since if they were dumped into actual ocean Supes would have the same problem island again in another few minutes, only seven times as large.
 

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Lord Pendragon said:
If I remember correctly, Kitty brushed them out of the chopper door on the island of kryptonite-infused crystal. So presumably, they were hurtled into space along with the rest of the rock.

I seem to recall them splashing into water, but assume that had to be a puddle on the island, rather than actual ocean, since if they were dumped into actual ocean Supes would have the same problem island again in another few minutes, only seven times as large.

Minus the Green Kryptonite problem however as they were not wrapped in green like the first one was. Luthor even pointed out how the crystal had taken on the properties of of what's "around" it.
 

Darthjaye said:
Minus the Green Kryptonite problem however as they were not wrapped in green like the first one was. Luthor even pointed out how the crystal had taken on the properties of of what's "around" it.
I'm not sure the billions of people killed by the destruction of the North American continent would appreciate the distinction.

"Sure, the billion of us are dead, but at least Superman can land on the new continent without getting hurt."

:p
 

Without the kryptonite shell, wouldn't the additional crystals have proved rather trivial for Superman to deal with though? If he can toss an island make of kryptonite that had time to grow into space, dealing with a few normal islands that are just getting started should be a piece of cake.
 

Darthjaye said:
Minus the Green Kryptonite problem however as they were not wrapped in green like the first one was. Luthor even pointed out how the crystal had taken on the properties of of what's "around" it.

Which brings up a point I think I mentioned earlier, which was- why didn't Luthor throw some gold or silver or something in the little Kryptonite tube with the crystal? Sure, he mentioned that real estate is more valuable than precious metals, but c'mon- a continent "salted" with gold veins in addition to the kryptonite (to keep Supes out) is double the bonus!!! :)
 

Cthulhudrew said:
Which brings up a point I think I mentioned earlier, which was- why didn't Luthor throw some gold or silver or something in the little Kryptonite tube with the crystal? Sure, he mentioned that real estate is more valuable than precious metals, but c'mon- a continent "salted" with gold veins in addition to the kryptonite (to keep Supes out) is double the bonus!!! :)

Heck with the rarity of platinum why not even that? Or diamonds for that matter? We have our answer though. Had Luthor rid himself of Superman he would have employed the other crystals to develop whatever "tech" he was speaking of acquiring and more than likely would have implemented some sort of quick money making scheme once he had staked out the new continent as his own.
 
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Victim said:
Without the kryptonite shell, wouldn't the additional crystals have proved rather trivial for Superman to deal with though? If he can toss an island make of kryptonite that had time to grow into space, dealing with a few normal islands that are just getting started should be a piece of cake.
Although it wouldn't be lethal to Superman directly, I can't imagine a mass seven times as large as the one he lifted wouldn't be a problem for him. A rather big problem. Hardly a piece of cake. You're also forgetting that he would have to deal with it immediately after dealing with the Kryptonite. So all that time he's being flown to the hospital and unconcious while people think he's dead? That crystal is growing.

Take the crystal from the movie. Multiply that by seven. Now give it, not minutes, but hours to grow.

I'm not saying Superman wouldn't have been able to find a way of dealing with it. He's Superman. But the point is that the movie wouldn't have ended there, if the crystals had fallen into the ocean. That would have been the tour de force. Which is why I believe they merely fell into a puddle on the surface of the already growing rock, and were jettisoned into space with it.
 
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ShadowDenizen said:
He lacked the sinisterness and nuances that (snip) and Gene Hackman brought to the part.
Hehe. That's funny. I must have missed that scene.

They were REALLY trying to make Superman a messianic hero.
I'm pretty sure they've been doing that in the comics for a while.

And? The film was dedicated to Christopher and Dana Reeves. This earned a standing round of applause from the crowd where I saw it.
While I wouldn't expect them not to dedicate it to them, this seems to me like Mick Foley mentioning the name of the town he's in and giving it a thumbs up for cheap pops.

Don't you mean "Lanaville"? 'Cause that's what it's felels like to me. ;)
I sure woudn't mind if a big rock from outer space (or anywhere) fell on her and killed her.
 

I enjoyed the film, but I wasn't excited by it one bit.

Kate Bosworth was, plainly and simply, the wrong choice for Lois Lane. I think the character was written well - I like her conversation with her son about whether or not they're trespassing on Lex Luthor's yacht - but she simply failed to convey the strong personality and confidence that Margot Kidder and Teri Hatcher brought to the role. She came across as a little weak-willed, actually - unconvincingly arguing she and humanity don't need Superman, wheedling Richard White to convince Perry to let her pick her own stories to cover - and that's very disappointing.

Plus, on a personal note, I think she's also pretty unattractive. Neither pretty nor sexy. I'd rather see Lois played by a handsome woman like Margot Kidder, who was no bombshell but at least seemed like a woman. Teri Hatcher at the beginning of Lois and Clark was both beautiful and curvacious, as well as determined. Bosworth was . . . nothing.

I didn't much like Lex's scheme, aesthetically, but I'm prepared to say that it makes sense for the character as established by previous film continuity. His plans don't always make sense but I think he's always been looking to dramatically leap into a position of power, after which he can just use his new resources to batter his way through any problems or opposition that arise.

Kevin Spacey's performance was good, if restricted to a limited range by the script. It's a little jarring to hear folksy turns of phrase that would have sounded natural in Gene Hackman's somewhat hucksterish Lex's mouth coming from a more refined and aristocratic version of the character. Spacey didn't quite deliver lines like "This is kind of a little reunion, isn't it? Heck, I'm a fan!" either like he was mocking that way of talking or like he genuinely talked that way.

I thought that Richard White and "Jason-El" were very solid. I approve heartily of the child character contributing to the story without unreasonably overshadowing the main adult characters, and that he entirely lacked the attitude that passes for charming in badly-written kid roles. Meanwhile, I liked that Richard was a decent, even heroic guy who didn't even get overly jealous about Lois' involvement with Superman - and it's a nice touch that he doesn't take Clark Kent seriously as a romantic rival and get jealous about him, because it demonstrates that his worries about Superman are based in the awesomeness of Superman, not the maleness of other people Lois spends time with.

Frank Langella and Sam Huntington pulled their supporting roles off well, though I thought characterising Jimmy Olsen like he'd just stepped in off the street where he wore a flatcap and knickerbockers and sold newspapers to 1930s Chicagoans was a little awkward. That impression passed quickly once he had more to do than exclaim over Clark Kent and exposit the five years of Lois Lane's life that Clark missed. Langella was solid as Perry White, though given a little too little to do.

Finally, there's nothing I can really say to criticise Brandon Routh's performance. I thought it was interesting that they eschewed the massive Alex Ross look in favour of a "regular guy in good shape"-type Superman, which is obviously an element held over from the Donner films but which makes a lot of sense in terms of Clark Kent coming across as a handome and fit guy who doesn't stand out much at all. A huge, handsome, hypermuscular Clark Kent who's not on Lois Lane's radar requires a different characterisation where he's dismissed as a rural farmboy (as in Smallville, from time to time) or jock type. That's not the Donner mold, though, so it's not the way Singer plays it.

Like Christopher Reeve and, in fact, Dean Cain, Routh's Superman is the strong, silent type who looks resolute and disapproving when dealing with criminals. Admittedly, there's not a lot for Superman to actually say - and cracking wise like Spiderman or mouthing off like Wolverine wouldn't really suit the character at all - but it's interesting that Superman doesn't communicate much even with the people he's come to save (like the cops or security guards, whichever they were, on the roof with the crook and the minigun). Whether that evinces reserve on Superman's part and implies that he feels it's pretty obvious why he's there and what he's going to do, or simply a focus on doing the job without wasting time on reassurances until everyone is really safe, I don't know, but it's an interesting element of characterisation that's not always present in other versions of the character. Does it emphasise the ambiguities of Superman as an alien and a saviour that people don't always even know that they're being rescued by him until they're already safe?

My major criticisms of the film are in the pacing. It's simply takes too long to cover the events of the narrative. I'm forgiving of lengthy openings like the scenes at the Kent farm, especially in a film like this where the time it takes Clark to get back to Metropolis reflects the uneasy transition back into society he faces as Clark Kent and as Superman, but the rest of the film is packed with scenes which are just longer than they need to be: the first test of the Kryptonian crystal growth in the widow's mansion, every scene where electrical devices black out after the first few shots, and innumerable dialogue-free transitions and shots held at the beginning and end of scenes for what seems to be no reason.

Even some of the action sequences drag on longer than they strictly need to - Lois, Richard, and Jason trapped in the galley of the sinking yacht, for instance. Since there can be no question that Superman will save them, there is no real suspense, and there's even less the longer you draw it out.

The worst offender, pacing-wise, is the sequence after Superman pushes the crystal island into space and falls to Earth. I can deal with the heavy-handed Christ metaphor, and I liked the touch of Martha Kent in the crowd outside the hospital. Lois' whispering the truth of Jason's parentage (one presumes) into Superman's ear is likewise worthwhile, even necessary. Again, though, so much of it is tension-free - no-one in any theater above the age of five believed Superman wouldn't survive, and most of those under five would have known he would too, so why drag out this bogus medical revival so long?

I like the spaceplane rescue, and I like Superman saving the residents of Metropolis from the effects of the earthquake. I thought the special effects were flawless and very cool - kudos to the team for taking the new Smallville-style heat vision effects on board but referring to the 70s-style "beams of colour" version at the climax.

I agree with everyone who said that they're interested to see the next film, both because I believe Singer will learn from his misjudgements on this one (though I fear nothing can be done about Bosworth as Lois Lane) and because I'm curious to see how they play with the addition of "Jason-El" to everyone's lives.

I just can't say I got excited during Superman Returns, and I think that's a shame.
 

mhacdebhandia said:
Like Christopher Reeve and, in fact, Dean Cain, Routh's Superman is the strong, silent type who looks resolute and disapproving when dealing with criminals... Whether that evinces reserve on Superman's part and implies that he feels it's pretty obvious why he's there and what he's going to do, or simply a focus on doing the job without wasting time on reassurances until everyone is really safe, I don't know, but it's an interesting element of characterisation that's not always present in other versions of the character. Does it emphasise the ambiguities of Superman as an alien and a saviour that people don't always even know that they're being rescued by him until they're already safe?

I noticed this, too, and it actually got me to looking at Superman/Clark Kent in a different way than I ever had before. I think the tendency is to look at Clark Kent as the bumbling, hucksterish secret identity of Superman, much as Bruce Wayne is seen as the decadent, playboyish secret identity of Batman. Thus it might seem weird that Superman doesn't come across with a bit more bravado in his superheroic guise, since he is freed of having to perform to keep his secret.

The performance Routh gave, however, made me start to look at Superman and Clark Kent as the same person, no "secret identities" involved. IE, Clark Kent was a farm boy who grew up as an outsider due to his abilities and the need to keep them secret. His social skills should be somewhat malformed; it shouldn't be seen as an act that he is bumbling and shy around Lois Lane, who he nurtures a strong affection for- he acts that way because he truly hasn't developed the social skills of emotional interaction at that level. So he comes across that way not because he's performing, but because that's who he is. When he puts on the Superman tights, he isn't changing at all- he's still awkward Clark Kent who doesn't really know how to interact quite so socially with people. He's now in a different role from other people's perceptions, though- he's their savior and hero, and rather than see him as awkward, they become awkward because, really, how do you interact with someone on that level? So Superman ends up coming across as the cool collected one, in a complete role reversal. In such a situation, he has the same reaction to other people's stumbling awkwardness as they do to him as Clark Kent (at least in the best of situations) where he just tries to sympathize with them and not make them feel any more ill at ease. So Superman presents himself as this strong silent type, but he's fundamentally the same all over.

Contrast, then, with someone like Batman, who (IMO) really is the underlying personality, and the Bruce Wayne identity is just one that he adopts out of necessity to deal with the rest of the world. Two different characters, essentially.

I don't know, maybe that's not the real concept behind Superman, but watching Routh's performance, that's the way I started to view the character.

BTW, Mhacdebhandia, I just wanted to say that I found this to be a really well written and insightful review. Thanks for sharing it!
 

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