The surprise round and you

[Greenstone.Walker]

I'm failing to see the problem here.

My point is, that both players and GMs in a game need to think "Are we OK if the antagonists can use this really powerful thing, as well as the protagonsits?" before applying such rules.

In my experience, players who suggest things like this are the loudest and quickest to complain when the GM uses the same rules against them.

So, whenver a player suggests a rule change like this, I make sure to explicitly ask them 'Are you OK when this happens to your character?"

 

[Flamestrike]

My point is, that both players and GMs in a game need to think "Are we OK if the antagonists can use this really powerful thing, as well as the protagonsits?" before applying such rules.

In my experience, players who suggest things like this are the loudest and quickest to complain when the GM uses the same rules against them.

So, whenver a player suggests a rule change like this, I make sure to explicitly ask them 'Are you OK when this happens to your character?"

I really dont get how DMs cant run it via RAW and RAI:

Player: I sneak up the guards.
DM: Cool. Roll steath mate.
Player: (rolls) An 18!
DM: (checks passive perception) The two guards sits there quietly gazing off into the distance whistling to themselves as you sneak up. You're now 30' away.
Player: I shoot the first guard in the face with my crossbow! The player has now declared an action. and the DM has determined that it is time to switch to combat sequence.
DM: OK mate, you lift your crossbow, take aim and fire! Roll initiative. The guards rolled a 13.
Player: (rolls) Damn, a 10.
DM: (thinks a second). OK, the guards go first. Hearing the twang of your bow at the last possible second, the guards stops whistling; before they can turn around you can resolve your attack. Theyre both surprised and cant do anything other than stand there like idiots on their turn. Its now your turn, lets resolve that crossbow attack.
Player: Do I get advantage from assasinate?
DM: Yes; im happy to rule that the guards havent yet 'taken' a turn this combat. However, as the guards are no longer surprised (having beaten you via initiative), your attack is not an automatic critical hit. You're hidden anyway, so you still get sneak attack to this attack, and advantage.
Player: Cool (rolls to hit, rolls damage).
DM: The first guard cops it in the back of the skull and staggers forwards in stunned silence, a soft gargle of blood coming from his mouth, possibly calling out the name of a sweetheart - her name the last word that ever passes his lips.
Player: It says 'Neutral Evil' in the alignment section of my character sheet for a reason DM. I'll use cunning action to hide.
DM: No-one ever thinks of the henchmen... I'll allow the hide check. The second guard is still in shock with what is happening, and hasnt yet had a chance to turn around and thus cant see you 'clearly enough'. What is your stealth check result?
Player: (rolls) 15...

And so forth.

I've never understood why some DMs find this so hard to wrap their heads around or narrate.

 

[abirdcall]

The assassin creeps up upon the guard. He successfully stealths into range and points his trusty crossbow at his target. He pulls the trigger...."Wait. We have to roll for initiative.""Um, okay. I get a 6.""The guard gets a 20."So now: The guard goes first, but because he is surprised he cannot move, take an action or a reaction. When the assassin fires, does he get advantage on the attack roll and the free critical if he hits?Or put another way, does losing initiative negate the assassin's abilities?

1. There is no surprise round.

2. The assassin's ability isn't negated by losing initiative. The assassin's ability is that if they win initiative they get a bonus. That is like saying a fighter's ability to have a 3rd attack is negated if they miss.

 

[the Jester]

I disagree with everyone in this thread.

If an assasin sneaks up on a guard and declares he wants to shoot the guard with a crossbow then the combat sequence commences.

When the combat sequence commences, all combatants roll initiative. Then the DM determines surprise, and surprised creatures cannot act on their turn on round 1 of the combat.

So if the assasin rolls a higher initiative score, he goes first and his assasinate ability triggers. If the guard rolls higher, the assasin cannot use assasinate (double crit) but arguably could use assasinate (advantage to hit) as the guard hasnt technically 'taken' a turn yet (he's surprised so cant act on his turn.

The guard reacted fast enough to thwart the assassins attempt to murder him (although he still wears a crossbow bolt to the face).

I'm pretty much on the same page as Flamestrike as far as assassination goes.

 

[Hriston]

I disagree with everyone in this thread.

The only thing you disagree with me on is this bit here:

So if the assasin rolls a higher initiative score, he goes first and his assasinate ability triggers. If the guard rolls higher, the assasin cannot use assasinate (double crit) but arguably could use assasinate (advantage to hit) as the guard hasnt technically 'taken' a turn yet (he's surprised so cant act on his turn.

The guard has taken his turn, so the assassin doesn't get advantage from Assassinate. If you read the feature that way, both parts of it trigger off the same condition, which is that the assassin has beaten his target's initiative.

I agree with everything else you've said here.

 

[Flamestrike]

The only thing you disagree with me on is this bit here:



The guard has taken his turn, so the assassin doesn't get advantage from Assassinate. If you read the feature that way, both parts of it trigger off the same condition, which is that the assassin has beaten his target's initiative.

I agree with everything else you've said here.

I generally only have this problem when the assasin is hidden anyway so its never really come up (he gets advantage anyway thanks to hidden).

 

[DEFCON 1]

I really dont get how DMs cant run it via RAW and RAI:

Player: I sneak up the guards.
DM: Cool. Roll steath mate.
Player: (rolls) An 18!
DM: (checks passive perception) The two guards sits there quietly gazing off into the distance whistling to themselves as you sneak up. You're now 30' away.
Player: I shoot the first guard in the face with my crossbow! The player has now declared an action. and the DM has determined that it is time to switch to combat sequence.
DM: OK mate, you lift your crossbow, take aim and fire! Roll initiative. The guards rolled a 13.
Player: (rolls) Damn, a 10.
DM: (thinks a second). OK, the guards go first. Hearing the twang of your bow at the last possible second, the guards stops whistling; before they can turn around you can resolve your attack. Theyre both surprised and cant do anything other than stand there like idiots on their turn. Its now your turn, lets resolve that crossbow attack.
Player: Do I get advantage from assasinate?
DM: Yes; im happy to rule that the guards havent yet 'taken' a turn this combat. However, as the guards are no longer surprised (having beaten you via initiative), your attack is not an automatic critical hit. You're hidden anyway, so you still get sneak attack to this attack, and advantage.
Player: Cool (rolls to hit, rolls damage).
DM: The first guard cops it in the back of the skull and staggers forwards in stunned silence, a soft gargle of blood coming from his mouth, possibly calling out the name of a sweetheart - her name the last word that ever passes his lips.
Player: It says 'Neutral Evil' in the alignment section of my character sheet for a reason DM. I'll use cunning action to hide.
DM: No-one ever thinks of the henchmen... I'll allow the hide check. The second guard is still in shock with what is happening, and hasnt yet had a chance to turn around and thus cant see you 'clearly enough'. What is your stealth check result?
Player: (rolls) 15...

And so forth.

I've never understood why some DMs find this so hard to wrap their heads around or narrate.

I'm able to wrap my head around what you state here quite easily. And as a narrative explanation for RAW and RAI, it seems to be fine.

I personally just don't like either the RAW or RAI because I find the double hurdle the Assassin has to jump to get to use his ability (both the successful Stealth check and the higher initiative roll) to be unnecessary. Assassinate isn't so powerful in my opinion that we need to cut his legs off in that manner.

If the Assassin is able to beat the guard Stealth vs Perception, then in my eyes that is all that is necessary to determine the guard is surprised and thus doesn't get to act in the first round of combat. No skin off my nose if others disagree with me... but since you aren't at my table, what you believe doesn't matter.

 

[Hriston]

I generally only have this problem when the assasin is hidden anyway so its never really come up (he gets advantage anyway thanks to hidden).

Yup, advantage from being unseen, but not from Assassinate, which is what I said in my post up thread. I just wanted to clarify that even though I had posted in this thread, you didn't seem to be disagreeing with me about anything very significant. A minor quibble maybe.

 

[Jediking]

If an Assassin is able to successfully line up a shot against an unsuspecting common guard, why do you need to roll anything at that point? Is the situation that uncertain, or would the corpse at the gate now be a larger issue to be roleplayed?

 

[Azurewraith]

I thought this untilled I figured a common guard could prob take a level 3rogue