The surprise round and you

[Ancalagon]

[MENTION=6804906]Fleetwood C. DeVille[/MENTION]

IF the guard had nearby allies who noticed the assassin, then rolling for initiative would make sense because it's clear that combat (in the sense of two sides taking action against each other) is starting.

Absolutely - the assassin has to succeed at "getting the drop" on the other guy via stealth and intelligent positioning. It can be pretty challenging! So it's only fair that if the assassin manages that, that the assassin, PC OR NPC, gets that first shot and all its consequences.

And hey, the assassin might still miss...

 

[MechaPilot]

Let's turn it around.

The GM says to a player, "Your character takes *rolls* 37 points of damage."
.......... "How?"
"A stealthed assassin has hit you with a crossbow, that's critical and sneak attack damage."
.......... "Don't I get to roll initiative?"
"No, you were surprised."
.......... "That's not fair! Why don't I get to roll initiative?"
.......... "All right, I shoot the assassin."
"You can't."
.......... "Why not?"
"He used Cunning Action to Hide and then move away."
.......... "That's not fair!"

The way I run things, you missed a step: the opposed stealth check for the assassin to remain hidden while making the attack. If the assassin fails that check, then I would ask for an initiative roll. If the assassin succeeds on the opposed stealth check, then the player/PC did have her chance to attempt to avoid the situation.

 

[Jediking]

If an Assassin Rogue is able to successfully line up a shot against an unsuspecting player character, do you need to roll anything in that situation?

I would if there was an uncertain outcome. So if the Assassin wasn't sure to hit, or unable to kill the PC in one hit (which would be the only way I would let the situation happen). If it was some CR 6 Assassin vs a level 2 PC, he'd be dead or unconscious and I'd probably lose a player from my table cause that's just a dick move.

My question was mostly about one PC (say level 5+) trying to kill a CR 1/8 guard; I'd just let one roll (the Stealth) decide that outcome. But for me, if I have my players make a successful Stealth roll into a barracks with sleeping CR 2 Veteran Guards in their bunks with higher HP than they could do in one hit, I'd probably still let them auto-kill them and wouldn't bother with the advantage/auto-crit.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I would if there was an uncertain outcome. So if the Assassin wasn't sure to hit, or unable to kill the PC in one hit (which would be the only way I would let the situation happen). If it was some CR 6 Assassin vs a level 2 PC, he'd be dead or unconscious and I'd probably lose a player from my table cause that's just a dick move.

Oh, I dunno... if that Level 2 PC pissed someone off so powerful that they could afford to hire a CR 6 Assassin to try and take out the character, and the character did nothing to protect himself while sleeping... I'd say that while it still might be a dick move, it was a justifiable one and the PC needed to be taught a lesson.

If you're Level 2... you ought to know not to do anything that signs your own death warrant by someone powerful and vindictive enough to hire someone else so skilled they can take you out in one shot while you're sleeping in your bed. LOL.

 

[Ancalagon]

The way I run things, you missed a step: the opposed stealth check for the assassin to remain hidden while making the attack. If the assassin fails that check, then I would ask for an initiative roll. If the assassin succeeds on the opposed stealth check, then the player/PC did have her chance to attempt to avoid the situation.

Would it be an opposed stealth check or would the assassin try to beat the PC's passive perception?

 

[MechaPilot]

Would it be an opposed stealth check or would the assassin try to beat the PC's passive perception?

I'd have to look up the RAW, if that's what you're asking about. However, the way I handle it would be with an opposed stealth check.

 

[Flamestrike]

I'd have to look up the RAW, if that's what you're asking about. However, the way I handle it would be with an opposed stealth check.

All that opposed steath check does (if succesful) is grant susprise to the assassin. And via the PHB surprise is clearly and expressly stated how it works (surprised creatures are unable to act on turn 1 of the ensuing combat). Meaning the assasin shoots first according to RAW. You dont need to do what youre doing.

However it also means the surprised creature might be able to react fast enough to the attack at the last second to (deflect arrows, cast shield etc). Doubtful though seeing as many of those abilities require a 'creature you can see' and the assasin in question is hidden.

Granting a free attack outside of the combat sequence is needless. The 'getting attacked by a hidden creature situation' is already covered in the rules.

Again; this happened to me in an AL game on the weekend. Aside from a gentle suggestion to the DM that this isnt what the rules say, I didnt want to argue the point and simply resolved to not play in that DMs games again.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Would it be an opposed stealth check or would the assassin try to beat the PC's passive perception?

For me personally... the Assassin would first make their Active Stealth check. Then the target (whether it be a guard or a PC) would either make an Active Perception check if they were on watch or had their eyes and ears out looking for problems... or I'd use their Passive Perception if they were not paying attention (and instead doing something like reading a book, sleeping, talking casually with the other members of the party etc.)

And in either case... both the assassin and the target could gain advantage or disadvantage on their Stealth/Perception depending on their circumstances. If the target was in an area that was alarmed, the assassin might get disadvantage on his stealth check. If the target was asleep, he might get a -5 (for disadvantage) on his Passive Perception. If the assassin placed a Silence spell in the area where he was attacking from, he'd get advantage on the stealth. And if the target had perhaps another two or three allies who were also on watch with him, the target would make his Active Perception check with advantage (due to the Help action from the allies.)

Once all this was figured out, the two checks would be made and then initiative would follow. And if the target's check was lower than the assassin, the target was surprised and would not get to act in the first round. And the assassin would get to use his assassinate abilities (regardless of how the initiative rolls fell.)

I freely admit this is not how Sage Advice says the rules were intended to work... but many times I find the intentions behind Sage Advice to be kinda stupid, and I just ignore his rulings when I don't agree with them.

 

[Ze_Azrael]

I agree with how Flamestrike resolves combat except regarding the Assassinate ability.

The Assassiante ability states (emphasis mine):

Starting at 3rd level, you are at your deadliest when you get the drop on your enemies. You have advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn't taken a turn in the combat yet. In addition, any hit you score against a creature that is surprised is a critical hit.

In the mentioned example, since the guard had a turn, I wouldn't let the rogue get advantage from Assassinate, but I would let him get the auto-crit due to successful surprise.
So breaking the scenario into a step-by-step process I would rule it as:

1. Rogue successfully sneaks into position behind bushes (winning the Stealth vs Passive Perception contest)
2. Rogue declares he wants to attack the guard from behind the bushes -> this begins combat sequence
3. Initiative is rolled - Guard wins initiative
4. Round 1: Guard is surprised so he can't move or take actions
5. Round 1: Rogue attacks guard with advantage. Since guard already had a turn, Assassinate (advantage) doesn't trigger, but Assasinate (crit) does, due to him being surprised. However since rogue is hidden until his position is revealed, he has advantage from being unseen. Guard now has reactions available so he could cast the Shield spell if he, for some reason, knew it.
6. Round 2: Guard, if still alive, gets to act normally. Continue standard combat

 

[abirdcall]

I agree with how Flamestrike resolves combat except regarding the Assassinate ability.

The Assassiante ability states (emphasis mine):


In the mentioned example, since the guard had a turn, I wouldn't let the rogue get advantage from Assassinate, but I would let him get the auto-crit due to successful surprise.
So breaking the scenario into a step-by-step process I would rule it as:

1. Rogue successfully sneaks into position behind bushes (winning the Stealth vs Passive Perception contest)
2. Rogue declares he wants to attack the guard from behind the bushes -> this begins combat sequence
3. Initiative is rolled - Guard wins initiative
4. Round 1: Guard is surprised so he can't move or take actions
5. Round 1: Rogue attacks guard with advantage. Since guard already had a turn, Assassinate (advantage) doesn't trigger, but Assasinate (crit) does, due to him being surprised. However since rogue is hidden until his position is revealed, he has advantage from being unseen. Guard now has reactions available so he could cast the Shield spell if he, for some reason, knew it.
6. Round 2: Guard, if still alive, gets to act normally. Continue standard combat

But he is no longer surprised after he has taken a turn. The effect of surprise has completely ended after the guard has taken his first turn. If an effect doesn't affect you, then you are not considered to be affected by that effect. It is tautological.

They get a bonus for winning initiative. The standard bonus is to have advantage. But when they surprise their opponents they probably already have initiative, so in that case they get auto-crit as well. In both cases, they need to win initiative to get a bonus from it.