The timeline as read from the books, and DRAGON

[Shade]

Bizarro! Bizarro! I love you! [/Sealab 2021]

I believe Erik Mona posted a timeline as he sees it on his website awhile back. I'll see if I can find it.

Edit: Here it is: A Brief History of the Multiverse

 

[Shemeska]

I don't have any of the early stuff, so I have to use 3rd ed info only.

The info on gehreleth/demodands looks interesting. Might like to see more detailed outline of events.

The most comprehensive outline of the Outer planes in a published book is from 'Hellbound: The Blood War'. It is slightly hazy before a certain point because it draws in-character from the oldest and most detailed records extant on the lower planes, all of which are yugoloth in origin.

The stuff about Apomps and the Gehreleths is there in that timeline, and also in 'Faces of Evil: The Fiends'. The notion of their exile creating Carceri is probably something I'm inferring (as there's no mention of Carceri before that point, nor any mention of any other lower planes yet being in existance or having formed from the mixing alignments. It seems poetic to have the plane of exiles and self-incarcerating betrayal form around the first bitter schism that develops within Evil.

Does my Far realm guess make sense? Or my assumption that LeShay = Elder Elves?

I'd leave the Far Realm out of it actually. It's essentially another multiverse, and it exists seemingly outside of the linear flow of time the Great Wheel possesses. I don't even know what Elder Elves are, except for a throwaway reference in Gates of Firestorm Peak, and they're rather firmly mortal and thus much much later in the historical timeline, eons upon eons later than the earliest pre-mortal fiends.

 

[James Jacobs]

If aboleths could cast spells, could they cast Summon Monster?

What would they summon?

I'm assuming that the summon monster spells didn't get invented until there were enough things to summon. Before then, I suppose they could have summoned other aboleths... or maybe accidental creations of the Elder Evils?

Anyway, this timeline's (the implied timeline of D&D apart from any campaign settings) one of the more common idle chit-chats that pops up now and then at Paizo.

Here's how I've always assumed the timeline breaks down:

1: Elder Evils era: infinite (Lords of Madness); the elemental planes already exist at this point, as do the outer planes, although "life" on these planes is little more than animate manifestations of elemental matter or law/chaos/good/evil. The obyriths are already dwelling on the Abyss, but haven't yet organized into anything more than forces of chaos. Opposing forces of law clash endlessly against the obyriths. The Material Plane exists at the core of the elemental planes, but nothing lives there yet.

2: The aboleth race is created when Piscaethces (aka the Blood Queen) accidently brushes agaisnt the Material Plane on her unknowable journey through the Far Realm and dimensions beyond.

3: Aboleth Empire. Aboleths create other forms of life on the Material Plane, and these creations quickly take on their own lives. The energies these ur-aboleths use to create life has a "ripple" effect on the other planes, and the mindless forces there begin to organize.

4: Divinity manifests on the outer planes, perhaps sparked by faith on the Material Planes. The first gods (the Elder Gods) begin to populate the outer planes with life. The baernoloths form, infuse the obyriths with evil and sentience, and the obyriths begin to colonize the Abyss. They first encounter the Wind Dukes as personifications of law, and the ancient war between these two creatures begins.

5: Mortal life discovers (invents?) divine magic, and with the aid of the gods are able to rebel against their aboleth creators. The aboleth empire is destroyed, and the few survivors retreat to the deep oceans to nurse their wounds and sulk.

6: As the secrets of creation fade, life on the Material Plane begins to evolve into the way we look at it now. Certain races (elder elves/LeShay/dragons/etc.) are the last races to keep these secrets. Elder elves open gate to Far Realm. Draedens and other super powerful outsiders manifest, further fueling the conflict between order and entropy, law and chaos on the Outer Planes.

7: Devils arise as mortal life develops the capacity to sin or blasphemy against the gods.

8: Baernoloths create yugoloths. Obyriths (perhaps at due to baernoloth urging, or perhaps not) create the tanar'ri to aid in their battles against law (led by the Wind Dukes).

9: War between the Wind Dukes and the obyriths spills into the Material Plane, a place where these forces can clash on a sort of "neutral ground" where neither one has a specific home-field advantage. The Queen of Chaos unites the obyriths (a few resist and go into hiding or are killed) and leads them against Wind Dukes. Miska the Wolf Spider is imprisoned and many of the obyrith lords are destroyed, leaving only those who managed to resist the Queen's call to arms. Eladrins assault the Abyss in and deliver the killing blow to the obyrith race, nearly destroying all that remain.

10: Humanity and other "modern" races develop on the Material Plane.

11: Illithids arrive from future Illithid Empire.

12: Gith rebel against illithids.

13: Tanar'ri and baatezu begin the Blood War, recreating the ancient Law Vs. Chaos battle of old.

14: Known history of most D&D campaigns begins.

Anyway... I'm sure I got a few things backwards there or forgot something, but that's more or less the way I see the prehistory of D&D playing out. Your Mileage May Vary.

 

[Shemeska]

I'm assuming that the summon monster spells didn't get invented until there were enough things to summon. Before then, I suppose they could have summoned other aboleths... or maybe accidental creations of the Elder Evils?

Anyway, this timeline's (the implied timeline of D&D apart from any campaign settings) one of the more common idle chit-chats that pops up now and then at Paizo.

Here's how I've always assumed the timeline breaks down:

1: Elder Evils era: infinite (Lords of Madness); the elemental planes already exist at this point, as do the outer planes, although "life" on these planes is little more than animate manifestations of elemental matter or law/chaos/good/evil. The obyriths are already dwelling on the Abyss, but haven't yet organized into anything more than forces of chaos. Opposing forces of law clash endlessly against the obyriths. The Material Plane exists at the core of the elemental planes, but nothing lives there yet.

2: The aboleth race is created when Piscaethces (aka the Blood Queen) accidently brushes agaisnt the Material Plane on her unknowable journey through the Far Realm and dimensions beyond.

3: Aboleth Empire. Aboleths create other forms of life on the Material Plane, and these creations quickly take on their own lives. The energies these ur-aboleths use to create life has a "ripple" effect on the other planes, and the mindless forces there begin to organize.

4: Divinity manifests on the outer planes, perhaps sparked by faith on the Material Planes. The first gods (the Elder Gods) begin to populate the outer planes with life. The baernoloths form, infuse the obyriths with evil and sentience, and the obyriths begin to colonize the Abyss. They first encounter the Wind Dukes as personifications of law, and the ancient war between these two creatures begins.

5: Mortal life discovers (invents?) divine magic, and with the aid of the gods are able to rebel against their aboleth creators. The aboleth empire is destroyed, and the few survivors retreat to the deep oceans to nurse their wounds and sulk.

6: As the secrets of creation fade, life on the Material Plane begins to evolve into the way we look at it now. Certain races (elder elves/LeShay/dragons/etc.) are the last races to keep these secrets. Elder elves open gate to Far Realm. Draedens and other super powerful outsiders manifest, further fueling the conflict between order and entropy, law and chaos on the Outer Planes.

7: Devils arise as mortal life develops the capacity to sin or blasphemy against the gods.

8: Baernoloths create yugoloths. Obyriths (perhaps at due to baernoloth urging, or perhaps not) create the tanar'ri to aid in their battles against law (led by the Wind Dukes).

9: War between the Wind Dukes and the obyriths spills into the Material Plane, a place where these forces can clash on a sort of "neutral ground" where neither one has a specific home-field advantage. The Queen of Chaos unites the obyriths (a few resist and go into hiding or are killed) and leads them against Wind Dukes. Miska the Wolf Spider is imprisoned and many of the obyrith lords are destroyed, leaving only those who managed to resist the Queen's call to arms. Eladrins assault the Abyss in and deliver the killing blow to the obyrith race, nearly destroying all that remain.

10: Humanity and other "modern" races develop on the Material Plane.

11: Illithids arrive from future Illithid Empire.

12: Gith rebel against illithids.

13: Tanar'ri and baatezu begin the Blood War, recreating the ancient Law Vs. Chaos battle of old.

14: Known history of most D&D campaigns begins.

Anyway... I'm sure I got a few things backwards there or forgot something, but that's more or less the way I see the prehistory of D&D playing out. Your Mileage May Vary.

Not too far off considering it's all off the top of our heads here. But a few changes to the above to note: I'd put the start of the Blood War between 9 and 10, or 10 and 11. We already know that the Blood War had been in full swing for eons at the height of the Illithid empire, and it actually paused to determine if the Illithid expansion into the Astral and Ethereal might impact the drive of the War Eternal.

I'd note that deities formed from mortal belief should be pushed to after the start of the Blood War based on the Blood War timeline from Hellbound. At the very least, deities should postdate the Yugoloths, and either postdate or appear at roughly the same time as the Tanar'ri and Baatezu.

I'd make sure of putting the origin of the Yugoloths explicitely before that of the Tanar'ri and Baatezu certainly (in that respect, 7 on the list is way too early) and depending on which version of the legend you go with, they'll be older than the Obyriths and Ancient Baatorians as well by a slight bit (though you seem to suggest that some sort of Proto-Obyrith race and possible proto-ancient baatorian race existed as just Chaos versus Law before the Baernaloths got their claws into them and created the Obyriths proper and presumably the Ancient Baatorians proper). But if we go with 'Faces of Evil', 'Hellbound' etc, the 'loths come first then the Tanar'ri and Baatezu are formed out of them by the Baernaloths. If we go with the varient legend from FC:I itself, then the Baernaloths seem to have created the Obyriths and Ancient Baatorians, presumably dovetailing the Heart of Darkness mythos of the Yugoloths, and then the Tanar'ri and Baatezu come later.

The exact relationship of the fiends is in a bit of flux at the moment. We seem to have fully established the Baernaloths as the original source of Evil who then created the Yugoloths, but then the legends split. Some sources say the Baern then created the Tanar'ri and Baatezu, and now the new spin on this says they instead created the Ancient Baatorians and Obyriths. A bit contradictory certainly, but in either case it's fun stuff to work with.

Perhaps the Yugoloths were lied to by the Baernaloths, or maybe the 'loths are responsible for twisting the true history of the early lower planes that they've watched elapse since their creation, and rather than tell the Tanar'ri and Baatezu about the Obyriths and Ancient Baatorians who resulted from the Baernaloth manipulations of the early 'loths, they omit them and themselves claim responsibility for the younger fiends, removing one degree of seperation to empower themselves and their own racial propaganda in the immediate here and now because those earlier spawn of theirs are less important in the current status quo of the Blood War.

That would be my spin, if I directly went with the varient legend that FC:I brings up for the super early history of the fiends.

 

[takasi]

the implied timeline of D&D apart from any campaign settings

The fact that there is a timeline means there must be a campaign setting to adopt it. Whether all of the "official" D&D settings in the past have adopted this timeline or not is irrelevant.

One of the things I really dislike about D&D is bickering over official "canon". While it's nice to have a shared experience, there's a line between swapping table stories and arguing over what did and did not happen in "D&D". It's the difference between playing a game of make believe vs debating a grand unification theory for the metaphysics of all mythologies that have existed or ever will exist.

D&D is about world creation, which includes timeline development. The timeline you listed is merely a suggestion and should be treated as such.

 

[James Jacobs]

The fact that there is a timeline means there must be a campaign setting to adopt it. Whether all of the "official" D&D settings in the past have adopted this timeline or not is irrelevant.

One of the things I really dislike about D&D is bickering over official "canon". While it's nice to have a shared experience, there's a line between swapping table stories and arguing over what did and did not happen in "D&D". It's the difference between playing a game of make believe vs debating a grand unification theory for the metaphysics of all mythologies that have existed or ever will exist.

D&D is about world creation, which includes timeline development. The timeline you listed is merely a suggestion and should be treated as such.

Very little of this timeline comes from a "campaign setting." It's components were built from implied events gathered from world-neutral events mined from early D&D monster descriptions, for the most part, or from notes detailed in the 1st Edition DMG (mostly in the artifacts section). A lot of them have gone on to become important parts of campaign settings, and some of them have even been the foundation blocks for campaign settings, but at its core, this timeline represents as close to a campaignless-D&D as you can get.

Sure, it's just a suggestion. But it's also based on 30+ years of tradition. That's gotta count for something.

 

[Erik Mona]

Or my assumption that LeShay = Elder Elves?

"Elder Elves" is a term introduced into the D&D lexicon by Bruce Cordell, near as I can tell. They are responsible for opening the first rift to the Far Realm. I have always assumed that when Bruce says "Elder Elves" he means "the quasi-mythological race of elves that existed before the drow split off from the elves and they started identifying themselves by subraces."

That's my assumption, and is not based on a conversation with Bruce.

From reading the leShay (that name is awful, especially with the uncapitalized L at the front of it) entry in the Epic Level Handbook, it appears that those guys aren't really elves, and are sole survivors of a catastrophe that essentially wiped out their ancient version of reality. While that catastrophe is probably worth thowing into the timeline, I don't know that I would equate Elder Elves and leShays.

Here's some of my own thinking about the issue:


A Brief History of the Multiverse
---------------------------------

Nothing Exists.

The Inner Planes form. Elementals take shape and begin battling each other along law/chaos axis. This is the conflict that eventually becomes the Blood War, but in the earliest days it's warring between elemental forces, because only elemental forces exist at this time. Elemental Princes (Imix, Cryonax, Bwimb, etc.) take form in this era and become major figures in this struggle.

As the conflict mutates, the concept of morality develops, opening the good/evil alignment axis. With this development, the Outer Planes come into form/are discovered. Elemental creatures such as genies and the air-focused Empire of Aaqa discover the Material Plane and begin to
colonize it.

In the oceans of the Material Plane, the aboleth manifest as an entity brushes against the Material Plane. Over the eons to come, the aboleth perfect the art of enslaving other life forms.

By the time the elementals reach the Abyss, it is already inhabited by demons (but not tanar'ri), who seem to be made of the "stuff" of the plane itself. The most powerful demonic entity is a being called the Queen of Chaos, who (with her consort Miska the Wolf-Spider, the so called "Prince of Demons") joins the side of Chaos in the great planar war.

The gods develop/emerge from Somewhere Else. These beings establish domains in the Outer Planes and begin to create mortal creatures in their image on the worlds of the Material Plane. The aboleth empires decline as the rise of faith and divine magic gives these races a new tool to use against them.

Dinosaurs and dragons are the most numerous/powerful mortal beings. By this time, the souls of countless mortal inhabitants of material worlds come to rest on the Outer Plane that most matches their alignment. In the Abyss, they become manes, though some of the most vile become true demons in their own right.

Certain servants of the gods rebel and become the devils.

The infusion of mortal souls into the Outer Planes is a major paradigm-shifting event that forever changes the multiverse. Old orders crumble and new political/sociological institutions take form.

The great Law/Chaos War takes a breather when the Wind Dukes of Aaqa employ the Rod of Seven Parts to vanquish Miska the Wolf-Spider and defeat the Queen of Chaos. The battle lingers on, however, in the form of warring between various evil factions, who continue the struggle primarily along the law/chaos axis. The conflict eventually becomes known as the Blood War.

With the Queen of Chaos sundered, servitor demons, the tanar'ri, boil up from the lower Abyssal depths and rebel against their "proto-demon" overlords. One of the greatest of these Abyssal rebels is the mighty demon lord Demogorgon, who takes Miska's title "Prince of Demons" as an insult to the old regime.

Mortals like elves, dwarves, and humans arise on the Material world. They replace more primeval races like kuo-toa and lizardfolk and troglodytes, driving these races into the corners of the world.

Mind flayers arrive from the future and create the gith from enslaved humans. Their empire extends over several material worlds.

The Elder Elves split into subraces. The drow take form as Lolth is cast out of the Seldarine.

Today.

--Erik Mona

 

[takasi]

Very little of this timeline comes from a "campaign setting."

It doesn't matter where it comes from; once you've created a timeline you've created a campaign setting. You can choose this option, but it's only one of many possibilities.

Sure, it's just a suggestion. But it's also based on 30+ years of tradition. That's gotta count for something.

It's just an amalgamation of disjointed ideas. Whether you call that "tradition" or not is up to you. It's a great suggestion to help others build their worlds though.

The biggest problem I have with saying a timeline is "official D&D" is that you're implying that homebrew campaigns that don't follow this are somehow "unofficial D&D", despite using the core books. D&D is a game not a world.

 

[Erik Mona]

It's the difference between playing a game of make believe vs debating a grand unification theory for the metaphysics of all mythologies that have existed or ever will exist.

Both sound like lots of fun. Is there any way to combine them?

D&D is about world creation, which includes timeline development. The timeline you listed is merely a suggestion and should be treated as such.

Well, duh.

--Erik

 

[Erik Mona]

The biggest problem I have with saying a timeline is "official D&D" is that you're implying that homebrew campaigns that don't follow this are somehow "unofficial D&D", despite using the core books. D&D is a game not a world.

That's a good point. Instead of calling it the Timeline of D&D, it's probably best to call it the Timeline of the Great Wheel, a description that handily includes all D&D prior to the release of the new FR cosmology and the Eberron campaign setting and all subsequent development not clearly labeled "Forgotten Realms" or "Eberron."

That home campaigns fall outside the scope of the current discussion is so obvious that it shouldn't need to be dwelled upon overmuch.

--Erik