D&D 5E (2024) The Undead Army Necromancer is not Designable

[Micah Sweet]

To a degree, this is the core of the difference between Conjure animals (2014), conjure animals (2024) and summon animals. 2014 created a pool of Monster Manual accurate creatures to use, each with their own HP and actions. The 2024 version created a collection of spirits that were non-interactable and did a specific effect. The summon spell create one powerful creature that acts like an ally.

The first issue is one of numbers. A horde of MM skeletons are the most versatile out of combat, doing anything from trap detector to caddie to archery. But they create hell on the action economy and are individually too weak (an army of skeletons are one AOE effect away from wasting countless spell levels for animate dead). But for most, this is what summoning minions should be: real actual minions capable of many things that a creature can do.

2024 conjure spells are abstract. They essentially aren't even creatures, they are spell effect zones flavored to describe non-interactable spirits vaguely shaped like the creature type in the name. All they do is is their one spell effect. It's the simplest method of creating a horde (a massive spell aoe doing necrotic damage and causing fear/paralysis/etc) but the least satisfying from a summon standpoint. It's not that much different from any other AOE effect, fluff notwithstanding.

The summon spells create one creature that usually is on par with the level of the summoner (and thus isn't canon fodder) and can be interacted with (has AC and HP) but one summoned creature does not an army make. And your still not really summoning a MM bear, zombie or mind flayer, you are summoning a spirit (again) that can look like those things but has it's own semi-customizable list of options. The best mechanical interpretation, but My Pet Zombie isn't what everyone wants.

Can those different types of summoning be squared? Should it? 2024 Conjure spells and the Summon spells are both in the 24 PHB, and Animate Dead/Create Undead still work like the 2014 type of summon. (More than can be said for pixie summoning druids). But none of those options really brings the fantasy of controlling hordes of the dead. And I don't think you can unless you are willing to give up either versatility or power. In short, I don't think the horde necromancer is possible.

You could also loosen up on "balance" and just make it work the way it makes setting sense to work.

 

[mellored]

I get your not trying to balance this, just spitball it. But sweet Vecna is this bad. It's a cloud of daggers and entangle lovechild

I was more thinking Web, but moveable. Which seems spot on for a 3rd level spell.

IMO grabbing+some damage is very thematic for a horde of zombies. But you should also be able to kill them and fight your way out.

that gets dispelled the first time it or you (concentration) get hit with a strong blow

Same as any other summon.

Also I expect Necromance subclass will buff it somehow. Free casting, THP, or concentration buff for example.


That said, i do like the idea that losing concentration is losing control of the horde.

It embodies the worst of both conjure types: the limited use cases of 2024 Conjures

Not sure how a moveable control/damage zone is limited use case.

and the fragility of 2014 Conjures

HP is certainly up for tweaking.
Maybe something like.

Any attack reduces the area by 5'. Area effect attacks reduce the size by the amount included in the area.

 

[Remathilis]

I was more thinking Web, but moveable. Which seems spot on for a 3rd level spell.

IMO grabbing+some damage is very thematic for a horde of zombies. But you should also be able to kill them and fight your way out.

Same as any other summon.

Also I expect Necromance subclass will buff it somehow. Free casting, THP, or concentration buff for example.

That said, i do like the idea that losing concentration is losing control of the horde.

Not sure how a moveable control/damage zone is limited use case.

HP is certainly up for tweaking.
Maybe something like.

Any attack reduces the area by 5'. Area effect attacks reduce the size by the amount included in the area.

Like I said, numbers are fungible. More HP would certainly be needed, especially if it automatically is hit/fails saves. 20 damage is trivial at 5th level.

But the concern is what else can you do with a horde of zombies. Can they lift and carry objects or work together to carry one big object? Can you use them excavate a wall? Can you send just one of the zombies ahead to "scout" a hallway for traps? When you summon them in an area too big for the diameter, what happens?

Conjure Animals (2014) resolves this by saying the summons are real monster manual creatures and subject to all the rules regarding that. 2024 resolves it by saying they are insubstantial spirits that only look like animals and only do what the spell effect is, no outside the box uses. Splitting the difference just gives you the problems of both without the benefits of either. My 2024 conjured animals might not be able to scout or lift, but they aren't one fireball away from a wasted third level spell slots either.

Maybe the solution is a version of Summon Undead that uses a specialized version of a zombie swarm monster. Doesn't fix the whole "the fighter sits on the outside of the swarm looking in" problem though....

 

[DEFCON 1]

The Necromancer is like the Psion and the Warlord... every person has a different idea about what it should do and how it should be done. And every Necromancer player will have different things that they need their animated minions to work and look like.

• Are skeletons/zombies animated purely as a combat ability?
• Are they animated to be used as multiple extra hands / bodies outside of combat?
• Do they need to be individual figures on the grid or are they acceptable to be played as a "swarm" effect that is basically multiple skeletons/zombies all represented by a single diameter icon and hit point pool?
• Does the Necromancer have to animate/summon undead minions at all?
• Does the game need rules to deal with the narrative issues of skeletons/zombies theoretically walking around inside towns and cities because the Necromancer player wants their undead minion to be treated as a companion that always sticks around like a Ranger's animal companion?
• Does the game need rules for the narrative implications of whether animating the dead is evil or not and what rights / responsibilities are there towards Necromancer and Paladin players playing in the same group and having to interact with each other?
• Does the game need rules for the narrative implications of how and where the necromancer finds the bodies that they will animate to become their undead minions, or does the game just handwave it and say the bodies just "appear" and you don't actually need physical corpses present when animating them?
• Is the "class fantasy" able to be represented without an animated undead at all? Or does just one undead companion suffice? Or does the Necromancer player need to be able to create at least up to 6 at a time? Or does the player need to be able to create a dozen or more undead at a time? And how often are these minions able to be refreshed?

At the end of the day, I would imagine the designers are going to default to whatever rules make it easiest for DMs to run, rather than what Necromancer player fans would most want to see. Because base D&D is a default-level game and they are going keep things more basic more often than not. After all, they have plenty of 3rd party producers at hand create the more elaborate rules and scenarios for giving players the ability to animate/summon mass armies of undead figures. No reason to force those rules on their mass D&D audience themselves.

 

[mellored]

Attempt 2. More of a moveable wall thing.

Summon Undead Horde
Concentration, up to 10 minutes.

You summon a horde of mindless undead. Choose an area on the ground made up of 10 5-foot-squares and is 5' high. Each square must be contiguous with another square.
Any creature that starts it's turn in the area takes 1d4 Necrotic and 1d4 Bludgeoning damage as countless bones dig in from every angle. Any creature that ends it's turn fully in the area is Grabbed. The area is difficult terrain.
The horde can be attacked, with each square having 10 AC and 1 HP, and is immune to Piercing, Psychic and Necrotic damage. Destroying a space within a Grabbed creature ends the Grabbed.
As an action, you can raise another 5-foot-squares contiguous with the current zone, up to a maximum number of square equal to the initial amount + your spell casting modifier.
As a bonus action, you can move each 5-foot-square area upto 15'. You can choose to move Grabbed by this spell are moved along with the area, but they must be fully within the zone. If at the end of your turn the zone is not contiguous, choose one contiguous part to maintain while the rest turns to dust.
At Higher level
Increases the damage by 1d4 Necrotic, the initial number of squares by 2 for each spell level 3rd.
Increase the number of squares regained by using an action by 1 for every 2 levels above 3rd.

 

[mellored]

But the concern is what else can you do with a horde of zombies. Can they lift and carry objects or work together to carry one big object? Can you use them excavate a wall? Can you send just one of the zombies ahead to "scout" a hallway for traps? When you summon them in an area too big for the diameter, what happens?

Sounds more like Unseen Undead Servant.

Which could be a level 3 Necromance feature.

When you cast Unseen Servant, you can gain an undead instead. Casting it in this way increases it's Strength equal to your wizard level, and the distance it can be away from you by 10' per wizard level.

Conjure Animals (2014) resolves this by saying the summons are real monster manual creatures and subject to all the rules regarding that

that doesn't really change it anything.
Can several swallows carry a coconut if they work together? Can you use them to excavate a wall?

Up to your DM.

Maybe the solution is a version of Summon Undead that uses a specialized version of a zombie swarm monster.

That could work too.
Still want it's size to grow and shrink though.

Doesn't fix the whole "the fighter sits on the outside of the swarm looking in" problem though....

Unless maintaining concentration let it be ally friendly zone, and losing concentration means they go attack anything while swarming towards the caster.

Still like that idea.

 

[Distracted DM]

Sounds like a 4e solution. Not that that's bad, 5e has gone in a distinctly more gameist direction over its development cycle, which heads more in the 4e direction.

Sounds more like Unseen Undead Servant.

Which could be a level 3 Necromance feature.

When you cast Unseen Servant, you can gain an undead instead. Casting it in this way increases it's Strength equal to your wizard level, and the distance it can be away from you by 10' per wizard level.

that doesn't really change it anything.
Can several swallows carry a coconut if they work together? Can you use them to excavate a wall?

Up to your DM.

That could work too.
Still want it's size to grow and shrink though.

Unless maintaining concentration let it be ally friendly zone, and losing concentration means they go attack anything while swarming towards the caster.

Still like that idea.

 

[mellored]

Sounds like a 4e solution.

I don't see how a subclass feature that buffs a spell is 4e style. Arcane Trickster had invisible mage hand since day 1.

Or do you mean the horde-as-squares? Yea, kind of. But I'm not sure how else to say make a moveable wall.

 

[Rushbolt]

Yup. They've got a solid Necromancer subclass too.

Necromancer | Level Up

a5e.tools

And Mage Hand Press has a full Necromancer class, had one in my game and ran one myself in another, which I believe is now available in D&D Beyond for those who use it.

Quite designable.

I also like the Necromancer class by Mage Hand Press. I feel it does a better job at bringing the Necromancer minion fantasy. I think 5e 2024 should focus more on a dark magic wizard than an Overlord. It is simpler for newer players, and I think there are quite a few veterans that wouldn't mind a subclass that leans into all the Necromancy spell capabilities.

 

[Necropolitan]

I also like the Necromancer class by Mage Hand Press. I feel it does a better job at bringing the Necromancer minion fantasy. I think 5e 2024 should focus more on a dark magic wizard than an Overlord. It is simpler for newer players, and I think there are quite a few veterans that wouldn't mind a subclass that leans into all the Necromancy spell capabilities.

I personally prefer playing Necromancers who are focused on casting Necromancy spells to damage/debuff enemies instead of creating Undead.

The issue is having just one Necromancer subclass. There should be two of them, one for damage/debuffing and the other for Undead.