D&D 5E (2024) The Undead Army Necromancer is not Designable

[mellored]

• Are skeletons/zombies animated purely as a combat ability?
• Are they animated to be used as multiple extra hands / bodies outside of combat?

Those 2 aren't mutually exclusive.
Perhaps not the same spell/feature. But easy enough to have both.

• Do they need to be individual figures on the grid or are they acceptable to be played as a "swarm" effect that is basically multiple skeletons/zombies all represented by a single diameter icon and hit point pool?

I haven't heard anyone say they want to track individual things.

• Does the Necromancer have to animate/summon undead minions at all?

Yes.
Doesn't have to be the only thing they do.

• Does the game need rules to deal with the narrative issues of skeletons/zombies theoretically walking around inside towns and cities because the Necromancer player wants their undead minion to be treated as a companion that always sticks around like a Ranger's animal companion?

No. That's what a DM is for.

• Does the game need rules for the narrative implications of whether animating the dead is evil or not and what rights / responsibilities are there towards Necromancer and Paladin players playing in the same group and having to interact with each other?

No. Things have moved away from alignment.
though there could certainly be settings specific restrictions.

• Does the game need rules for the narrative implications of how and where the necromancer finds the bodies that they will animate to become their undead minions, or does the game just handwave it and say the bodies just "appear" and you don't actually need physical corpses present when animating them?

No. Again the DM is in charge of narrative implications.

As for needing a corpses, that's a harder one. Maybe split the difference. You can summon anywhere, but summoning from a corpse gives you a bonus (i.e. last longerl.

• Is the "class fantasy" able to be represented without an animated undead at all? Or does just one undead companion suffice? Or does the Necromancer player need to be able to create at least up to 6 at a time? Or does the player need to be able to create a dozen or more undead at a time? And how often are these minions able to be relonger.

Most of those are balance considerations.

Needs to be able to create a "army", but not as individual minions.
Which is not mutually exclusive to creating one larger undead.

Easy enough to have multiple different spells.
I.e. Conjure Undead (Swarm) Summon Undead (individual), Undead Servant (utility), and Circle of Death (non-summon).

And let the player cast the one they want.

 

[mellored]

I personally prefer playing Necromancers who are focused on casting Necromancy spells to damage/debuff enemies instead of creating Undead.

IMO, that's more of a Warlock than a Necromancer.

I realized the spell schools for those spells are "neceomancy", but i never got why they where categorized in the first place.

 

[Distracted DM]

I don't see how a subclass feature that buffs a spell is 4e style. Arcane Trickster had invisible mage hand since day 1.

Or do you mean the horde-as-squares? Yea, kind of. But I'm not sure how else to say make a moveable wall.

The latter part And I wasn't deriding it, it's just looking at design from, like I said, more of a gameist perspective as opposed to simulationist. But you're in good company, that's how 5e's been headed since the late 2010's. I'm not sure where I fall on that gameist-simulationist curve, somewhere in the middle I think but I see the appeal of both.

 

[Dausuul]

This is the "horde" spell I designed for a homebrew Necromancer subclass, using Summon Undead as a starting point and modifying heavily. (Not yet high enough level to cast it, but I look forward to testing it when the campaign gets there. I expect there will be a lot of balance tweaking with the DM at that point.)

Undead Horde (Necromancy)
Level: 3
Casting Time: 1 action
Range/Area: 90 ft.
Components: V, S, M (a pinch of bone dust)
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 hour
You call forth the ancient dead from the pits of the earth. A swarm of shambling skeletons and zombies rises from the ground at any point within range, using the Undead Horde stat block. When the horde is reduced to 0 hit points or the spell ends, the undead sink back into the earth.

The horde is an ally to you and your allies. In combat, the creature shares your Initiative count, but it takes its turn immediately after yours. It obeys your verbal commands (no action required by you). If you don’t issue any, it takes the Dodge action and uses its movement to avoid danger.

Using a Higher-Level Spell Slot. Use the spell slot’s level for the spell’s level in the stat block.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

5e sucks are hordes, but the key is simply to treat them as A creature. Either using swarms as has been suggested, or by building specific horde rules that feel more dynamic than swarms do.

 

[Benjamin Olson]

Well now that the 2024 rules make all the summons spells just conjure a boring personality and consequence free spirit in the shape of the thing like some sort of video game power, undead are the only "summonses" I'm interested in working with, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who find the dozens of spirit conjuring spells don't really scratch the thematic itch. So like 'em or lump 'em there's going to be a lot of zombies at some tables for the duration of this edition, whether there is a subclass actually supporting them or not.

 

[SkidAce]

We use 2014 Animate Undead.

That gives you two minions that are arguably better than Unseen Servant.

If you want more...upcast.

BUT in combat we convert them to a swarm/horde.

So, max cast would give you 14 skeletons (9th level spell). Seems weak. Maybe necromancy specialist classes would get +plus X per level as a special ability.

Besides, anything larger than 14 skeletons you should probably handle with large scale combat anyway, as 14 is one more than a 13 man squad in some militaries, so anything larger could be gained just like hiring mercenaries or a horde/army.

IMHO.

 

[SkidAce]

To clarify: Basic spell, two minions, use in combat as is.
Upcast, 4+ minions, use in combat as swarm.

 

[Pedantic]

I'm not entirely sold that we can't do a summoning class honestly, with actual stat blocks and all, but I definitely don't think it should be on the wizard chassis. That's very much it's own thing, and probably should be burning minion resources (summon hit points, bodies/LR, rounds/day, whatever) to use a few spell-like effects, instead of converting a few spells into minions.

 

[SkidAce]

I'm not entirely sold that we can't do a summoning class honestly, with actual stat blocks and all, but I definitely don't think it should be on the wizard chassis. That's very much it's own thing, and probably should be burning minion resources (summon hit points, bodies/LR, rounds/day, whatever) to use a few spell-like effects, instead of converting a few spells into minions.

...a warlock chassis, spells being SUMMONS only, invocations that modify summons, pacts could be with certain types of creatues?

we'd need a few better, more variety summons spells.