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The veteran (a prestige class inspired by a boring boxing match, revised 10/3-03)

monboesen

Explorer
As the title says this was actually inspired by a real boxing match. One of the fighters did almost nothing but stepping back or round, striking so few blows each round that they could be counted on a pair of hands. Even though he still won the fight and rightly so as he had the most blows that actually connected with body or head. I have expanded the concept to other types of fighters. Please read and comment.

Veteran
The veteran is the old campaigner, the over the hill fistfighter and the soon to retire career soldier. It’s often said “the best defense is a good offense” but the veteran know that its just a dangerous lie that only the very young or very foolish belives. Experience has shown him that cunning, patience and the careful approach wins out every time. Other warriors might charge into combat, raining mighty blows all around, but the veteran takes no chances, watches his back and studies his opponents, letting them wear themselves out before he strikes back.

Requirements
Base Attack Bonus: +7
Skills: Sense motive 4 ranks
Feats: Combat Expertise, Endurance
Weapon and Armor profiencies: All simple and martial weapons and all armor (heavy, medium and light)


Hd:1d12


Class Skills
The Veterans skills (and the key ability score for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Ride (Dex), Sense motive (Wis), Swim (Str).

Skillpoints per level: 2+ Int modifier.


Class Features
Weapon and Armor profiency: The veteran gains no new weapon or armor profiency

Seen it before (Ex): The veteran naturally has seen most feints and combat moves before and don’t fall for the anymore. He gains a +4 competence bonus to Sense motive checks versus feinting in combat

From a mile away (Ex): When fighting a less skilled opponent the veteran can easily read the pattern of attacks. If fighting a opponent of less base attack bonus than himself and using combat expertise, the veteran gains 1.5 times the penalty to attacks as a bonus to his armor class. When he reaches 9th level the dodge bonus becomes 2 times the attack penalty.

Wear them out (Ex): By moving around, dodging blows and only striking back occasionally a veteran can tire his opponent before going on the offense. If the veteran keeps engaging an opponent with at least one attack each round his opponent must roll a fortitude save (DC 10+veteran level and int modifier+1/round after the third) after three rounds and each following round. If he fails it he is fatigued for as long as the veteran keeps attacking +1 round.

Roll with it (Ex): The veteran can roll with a potentially lethal blow to take less damage from it than he otherwise would. Once per day, when he would be reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by damage in combat (from a weapon or other blow, not a spell or special ability), the veteran can attempt to roll with the damage. To use this ability, the veteran makes an melee unarmed attack roll (DC = damage dealt). If the attack roll equals or surpasses the damage, he takes only half damage from the blow; if not, he takes full damage. He must be aware of the attack and able to react to it in order to execute his defensive roll—if he is denied her Dexterity bonus to AC, he can’t use this ability. At 8th level the ability can be used twice per day.

Take no chance (Ex): A veteran is a master of pacing, staying out of reach and taking a pokeshot at just the right time. The veteran can spend a full round action gaining only one attack, in that round and until his next action he can take a penalty to attack of any number equal to his base attack bonus or less and gain that penalty as a dodge bonus to armor class. The From a mile away ability works as normal if the opponent has less base attack bonus than the veteran.

Improved feint (EX): The veteran gains the feat improved feint.

It's only fear boy (Ex): THe veteran knows and understands the nature of fear. Though he stills feel it, he has learned to contain it, not letting himself be overwhelmed by it. If affected by a spell or ability that causes the veteran to normally be panicked or frightened he is instead Shaken. If normally Shaken by an ability or spell he is unaffected.

Last strike counts (Ex): The veteran fouses on defending himself and then striking at the opening just as his opponent attacks. In any round were the veteran is already using the Take no chance ability and delays his action to just after an opponents (this usually requires Taking no chance in two consecutive rounds) he gets a +4 circumstance modifier to hit.

Out of harms way (Ex): The veteran is an expert at presenting only non vital parts of his body to attacks. If struck a critical hit while wearing light or heavier armor there is a 25 % chance that he turns the critical blow into a normal one. At 7 level the chance increases to 50 % and requires at least medium armor. Finally at 10th level the chance to avoid the critical rises to 75 % as long as the veteran wears heavy armor. He must be aware of the attack and able to react to it in order to use this ability—if he is denied her Dexterity bonus to AC, he can’t use this ability.


Class Base Fort Ref Will Special
Level Attack Bonus Save Save Save
1 +1 +2 +0 +0 Seen it before, From a mile away I
2 +2 +3 +0 +0 Wear them out
3 +3 +3 +1 +1 Out of harms way 25 %
4 +4 +4 +1 +1 Roll with it 1/day
5 +5 +4 +1 +1 Take no chances
6 +6 +5 +2 +2 Improved feint, Its only fear boy
7 +7 +5 +2 +2 Out of harms way 50 %
8 +8 +6 +2 +2 Last strike counts, Roll with it 2/day
9 +9 +6 +3 +3 From a mile away II
10 +10 +7 +3 +3 Out of harms way %
 
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It is hard to say if this class is overpowering or weak, as I didn't play much figther, but at first sight, I would tell it seems not a bad class.

There is one thing I don't like, it is the competence bonus to roll with it equal to the level. I image the finesse fither, or worst, the finesse ranger who have taken this class, with a reflexe roll equal to 31 (Base: 10 + Dex: 6 + Cloack: 5+ Competence Bonus: 10). As you see it is not hard to have a high reflexe, even with low save, you would have 27. I think you should not give a competence bonus to it. Ok, the figther with Dex 2 and his adamantoium full plate will have, maybe 8 or 10 only, and it isn't much, but yet dodging blow is more a roguish style.

If you want a more figther style, I would tell, replace the reflexe save by an attack roll, and if he succeed, he would have parry the roll. (So see it as parry the blow instead of dodging it.)

So that was my suggestion.
 


Well you are right, i did not really see anyone but classes with low reflex save taking up this class. At first i had given a competence bonus equal to half the class level, but even with that bonus it seemed that it would very difficult to make the saves for a standard fighter type. (And I would want them to make the saves most of the time, its a large part of their abilities so it should ususally work)

Your suggestion to make it an attack roll working as a save might be a better idea. That would reflect the veterans skill, not reflexes and luck and at the same keep the scores quite high.

So keep them coming.
 


Not enough front loaded…
My review…


Veteran

The veteran is the old campaigner, the over the hill fist fighter and the soon to retire career soldier. It’s often said “the best defense is a good offense” but the veteran know that it is just a dangerous lie that only the very young or very foolish believes. Experience has shown him that cunning, patience and the careful approach wins out every time. Other warriors might charge into combat, raining mighty blows all around, but the veteran takes no chances, watches his back and studies his opponents, letting them wear themselves out before he strikes back.

Requirements
Base Attack Bonus: +7
Skills: Sense motive 4 ranks (just allow s. motive as a class skill for fighter first)
Feats: Combat Expertise, Endurance
Weapon and Armor proficiencies: All simple and martial weapons and all armor (heavy, medium and light) (usually not a prer.)


Hd:1d10


Class Skills
The sons skills (and the key ability score for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Ride (Dex), Sense motive (Wis), Swim (Str).

Skill points per level: 2+ Int modifier.


Class Features
Weapon and Armor proficiency: The veteran gains no new weapon or armor proficiency

Seen it before (Ex): The veteran naturally has seen most feints and combat moves before and don’t fall for the anymore. He gains a +4 competence bonus to Sense motive checks versus feinting in combat

Improve Combat expertise, and supreme combat expertise (Ex): When fighting a less skilled opponent the veteran can easily read the pattern of attacks. If fighting a opponent of less base attack bonus than himself and using combat expertise the veteran gains 1.5 times the penalty to attacks as a bonus to his armor class. When he reaches 9th level the dodge bonus becomes 2 times the attack penalty.

Wear them out (Ex): By moving around, dodging blows and only striking back occasionally a veteran can tire his opponent before going on the offense. If the veteran keeps engaging an opponent with at least one attack each round his opponent must roll fortitude save (DC 10+veteran level and int modifier+1/round after the third) after three rounds and each following round. If he fails it he is fatigued for as long as the veteran keeps attacking each round. Doesn’t work against construct and undead opponents.

Roll with it (Ex): The veteran can roll with a potentially lethal blow to take less damage from it than he otherwise would. Once per day, when he would be reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by damage in combat (from a weapon or other blow, not a spell or special ability), the veteran can attempt to roll with the damage. To use this ability, the veteran must attempt a Reflex saving throw (DC = damage dealt). The veteran gets a competence bonus equal to his class level to the save. If the save succeeds, he takes only half damage from the blow; if it fails, he takes full damage. He must be aware of the attack and able to react to it in order to execute his defensive roll—if he is denied her Dexterity bonus to AC, he can’t use this ability. Is it the same as the rogue ability?

Take no chance (Ex): A veteran is a master of pacing, staying out of reach and taking a poke shot at just the right time. The veteran can spend a full round action gaining only one attack, in that round and until his next action he can take a penalty to attack of any number equal to his base attack bonus or less and gain that penalty as a dodge bonus to armor class. Improved combat expertise ability works as normal if the opponent has less base attack bonus than the veteran (can stack).

Improved feint (EX): The veteran gains the feat improved feint.

? There is a wait maneuver. If using take no chances + wait…. (Rephrase like itLast strike counts (Ex): The veteran focuses on defending himself and then striking at the opening just as his opponent attacks. In any round where the veteran is already using the Take no chance ability and delays his action to just after an opponents (wait maneuver), he gets a +4 circumstance modifier to hit.


Out of harms way (Ex): The veteran is an expert at presenting only non vital parts of his body to attacks. If struck a critical hit there is a 50% chance that he turns the critical blow into a normal one. The % Improves at higher levels.
Nullified if flanked or surprised

Class Base Fort Ref Will Special
Level Attack Bonus Save Save Save

1 +1 +2 +0 +0 Seen it before, Wear them out
2 +2 +3 +0 +0 Improve combat expertise
3 +3 +3 +1 +1 Roll with it 1/day
4 +4 +4 +1 +1 Take no chances
5 +5 +4 +1 +1 Improved feint can you give me the details
6 +6 +5 +2 +2 Out of harms way 50%
7 +7 +5 +2 +2 Last strike counts
8 +8 +6 +2 +2 Out of harms way 75%
9 +9 +6 +3 +3 Supreme combat expertise
10 +10 +7 +3 +3 Out of harms way 95%
 
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My suggestions.

Add to prereq: Profession (soldier) 4 ranks.

Raise the HD to d12, because, well, it really fits them.

I think trepanier is right in that the Out of Harm's Way should be staged up over several levels. I would got farther and have it start at 25% at 4th. But I do not think it should ever get above a 75% chance to negate a critical hit (and that should require the character to be wearing heavy armor).

Hm, side thought, to use OoHW at 25% you need light armor, at 50% you need medium and at 75% you need heavy. That might work.

There should be a bonus to saves against fear in there somewhere as well.

Overall, an interesting class. Keep up the good work.
 

I will try to adress each of your comments in the order of appeareance.

Not enough front loaded…
My review…

Well I guess that is a matter of taste. In my book frontloaded is a bad word that keads to cherry picking abilities from a multitude of classes. I would much rather reward the player that stays consitenly to a class and a theme for his character. Therefore i usually place the juiciest abilities at 6-10th level of a prestige class.



Requirements
Base Attack Bonus: +7
Skills: Sense motive 4 ranks (just allow s. motive as a class skill for fighter first)

Why should I allow Sense motive to fighters, they can have 4 ranks of any cross-class skill at level 5 and the class has no other skill requirements and practically forces the character to have hight intelligence (to get combat expertise) so it should have skill points enough. (That said I give 2 ekstra skillpoints to all characters per level regardless of class, thus my view might be skewed)


Feats: Combat Expertise, Endurance
Weapon and Armor proficiencies: All simple and martial weapons and all armor (heavy, medium and light) (usually not a prer.)

Well maybe not but it sort of fits. Could be to tough for monks though.

Wear them out (Ex): By moving around, dodging blows and only striking back occasionally a veteran can tire his opponent before going on the offense. If the veteran keeps engaging an opponent with at least one attack each round his opponent must roll fortitude save (DC 10+veteran level and int modifier+1/round after the third) after three rounds and each following round. If he fails it he is fatigued for as long as the veteran keeps attacking each round. Doesn’t work against construct and undead opponents.

Or any other creature immune to fatigue, but it is a always a good idea to be precise. I will try harder.


Roll with it (Ex): The veteran can roll with a potentially lethal blow to take less damage from it than he otherwise would. Once per day, when he would be reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by damage in combat (from a weapon or other blow, not a spell or special ability), the veteran can attempt to roll with the damage. To use this ability, the veteran must attempt a Reflex saving throw (DC = damage dealt). The veteran gets a competence bonus equal to his class level to the save. If the save succeeds, he takes only half damage from the blow; if it fails, he takes full damage. He must be aware of the attack and able to react to it in order to execute his defensive roll—if he is denied her Dexterity bonus to AC, he can’t use this ability. Is it the same as the rogue ability?


Basically yes. Though I am tempted to make it an attak roll in place of the save as suggested by a former poster.


Take no chance (Ex): A veteran is a master of pacing, staying out of reach and taking a poke shot at just the right time. The veteran can spend a full round action gaining only one attack, in that round and until his next action he can take a penalty to attack of any number equal to his base attack bonus or less and gain that penalty as a dodge bonus to armor class. Improved combat expertise ability works as normal if the opponent has less base attack bonus than the veteran (can stack).

? There is a wait maneuver. If using take no chances + wait…. (Rephrase like itLast strike counts (Ex): The veteran focuses on defending himself and then striking at the opening just as his opponent attacks. In any round where the veteran is already using the Take no chance ability and delays his action to just after an opponents (wait maneuver), he gets a +4 circumstance modifier to hit.

As far as I know the wait maneuver is called Delay ;)

Improved feint

That is a feat in 3.5 ed allowing to bluff in combat as a move action.

Out of harms way (Ex): The veteran is an expert at presenting only non vital parts of his body to attacks. If struck a critical hit there is a 50% chance that he turns the critical blow into a normal one. The % Improves at higher levels.
Nullified if flanked or surprised


Good point about only working when not surprised. That should definately be how it works. Though I think it might be a good idea to spread the ability out a bit more I personally think that 95 % chance to avoid critical is to much. A more reasonable range might be three steps. Starting at 25 % at 3 level, then increasing to 50 % at 7 level and finally 75 % at 10 level.
 
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My suggestions.

Add to prereq: Profession (soldier) 4 ranks.

Funny. I initally had a prerequisite like that. In the end I deleted it as I did not really know what Profession (soldier) does. What abilitites do the character gain from that skill and when do you roll for it ? As i were not really sure that the skill should exist, I removed it as a prerequisite.


Raise the HD to d12, because, well, it really fits them.

Like minds think alike. Again I had thought about it but decided that it was better to err to the side of caution and left it at d10. But if you guys think d12 is OK, so do I


I think trepanier is right in that the Out of Harm's Way should be staged up over several levels. I would got farther and have it start at 25% at 4th. But I do not think it should ever get above a 75% chance to negate a critical hit (and that should require the character to be wearing heavy armor).

Agreed. The armor thing is a good idea.

Hm, side thought, to use OoHW at 25% you need light armor, at 50% you need medium and at 75% you need heavy. That might work.

Great idead, consider it stolen.


There should be a bonus to saves against fear in there somewhere as well.


Again it was on my list of possible abilities but left out as i thought it might be to much. But something like a +2 or +4 competence bonus against fear might be in order.

Overall, an interesting class. Keep up the good work.[/QUOTE]

Thanks
 

trepanier said:
Wear them out (Ex): By moving around, dodging blows and only striking back occasionally a veteran can tire his opponent
Why is the opponent fatiguing out before his time? It's a bit ridiculous if the opponent doesn't really care to engage the veteran all out anyway. The veteran should receive extended "lasting time" instead of the opponent oddly collapsing simply because the guy kept engaging him. Is the veteran draining his opponent's vitality?

ciaran
 

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