D&D 5E The Warlord shouldn't be a class... change my mind!

[Paul Farquhar]

Yup. So, answer me this. How much weight should we give your criticisms?

It's advice, not criticism. You want to persuade people that adding a warlord class is a good idea, you need to drop the incredibly bad idea that the class - any class - does the planning. Or ignore me and don't get warlord, the choice is yours.

Seriously. You have zero experience with the system, zero knowledge of how it actually plays in the game, and no experience with testing the mechanics. Why should we listen to you?

I mean, sure, I've argued against psionics having their own class. But, at least I've PLAYED multiple games of D&D with psionic rules. I have actual play experience to back up my opinions. What do you have?

I don't really care about the exact mechanics of the class. But I have played five different editions of D&D, so I know that class mechanics have to change between editions.

For me, "people want to play them" is a good enough reason to have a warlord and a psion class in the game.

 

[Shades of Eternity]

Dumb, but related question.

Is there any way mechanically to do a shield wall in dungeons and dragons?

been studying anglo-saxon history and them more or less won on this tactic, but not sure if it applies to small scale tactics.

if it can, that alone seriously justify the Warlord's role.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Yeah, as others have said, that's about the thinnest argument to make. I mean, you'd never describe Robin Hood as a Ranger - what, he's a special forces member of the US Army? You'd never describe King Arthur or any of the knights of the round table as Paladins, but, guess what, that's what D&D calls them.

Never minding you'd never call anything a bloody cleric.

@Sacrosanct - THIS is what others were railing against earlier. No matter what is put forward. No matter what the evidence is. No matter what the argument is, the goal posts just keep shifting further and further down the line until "oh, we're being perfectly reasonable, it's the other side that can't be reasoned with." It's incredibly frustrating.

And around and around and around the circle goes. .

So what? Want some advice? You're never going to change how something feels to a person. If that person doesn't feel like those people feel like a warlord, nothing will change that. It's subjective. Just like nothing will change your mind that those people do feel like a warlord. It's all just our opinions, man.

Also, nothing in that post you quoted remotely infers they are arguing they are reasonable and you're not. That's the sort of strawman I was referring to a few pages earlier. If you have to position yourself as a victim when you're not, as opposed to just a disagreement, that weakens your position.

It's a matter of opinion. If you don't agree, which you don't, state it and move on.

 

[Garthanos]

Dumb, but related question.

Is there any way mechanically to do a shield wall in dungeons and dragons?

been studying anglo-saxon history and them more or less won on this tactic, but not sure if it applies to small scale tactics.

if it can, that alone seriously justify the Warlord's role.

There was in 4e If your team had 3 shield users (it might have been usable without that it really seemed like hmmm less appropriate? Ah heck I never used it )

 

[Prakriti]

The problem with this argument is that it applies to EVERY literary example. You comment that rogues, for example, have a "signature ability". I would assume that means sneak attack. Show me a literary example please of a rogue whose signature ability is stabbing people from behind or by surprise.

The Rogue archetype has many signature abilities, all of which were codified in AD&D's original Thief skills: picking pockets, opening locks, hiding in shadows, moving silently, etc. And literary examples abound: the Gray Mouser is just one famous example. He does all these things all the time.

But, Croaker, Miles and Vimes all share similar roles - they are commanders, even if they aren't in command. They inspire those around them to do things they normally wouldn't do. Which is exactly what a Warlord should be doing.

An evil stepmother is a common archetype found in literature. Evil stepmothers generally mistreat their step-daughters and create conflict within a family. Should evil stepmother be a class in D&D? Why or why not?

Now take those arguments and apply them to the warlord. It's the same argument. Neither the warlord nor the evil stepmother need special mechanics to represent them. They are already represented by other sub-systems within the game, such as age, sex, alignment and marital status in the evil stepmother's case. If you want to play an evil stepmother, then roll up a female PC with an evil alignment and ask your DM for step-children as part of your backstory. If you want to play a warlord, then roll up a Banneret and ask your DM for troops and followers. It's that simple.

 

[Undrave]

An evil stepmother is a common archetype found in literature. Evil stepmothers generally mistreat their step-daughters and create conflict within a family. Should evil stepmother be a class in D&D? Why or why not?

That's silly. She'd be an Antagonist NPC. She doesn't need a class, just a stat block.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Ranger: Robin Hood!? LOL How?

Prettymuch sheer will of the fandom since the 80s. The old-school ranger was very hard to make into an adequate archer (DEX was one of the few stats it didn't have a minimum requirement in), which was Robin's big thing (especially as he had been perceived in pop-culture from the 30's through the 80s), heck, in 1e, by the time it got followers -random, weird, supernatural followers for the most part - it also had spellcasting.
Yet, it was the woodsy fighter sub-class, so there was just this collective psychic force pressing on TSR like a million voices crying out, and not being silenced by anything but an "unofficial NPC Class" 'Archer' with an Archer-Ranger option in The Dragon.
Talk about zeitgeist.

Not every person who can live in the woods is a ranger. He isn’t known for his amazing tracking, he isn’t especially good with animals, he isn’t connected to the land in any remotely mystical way, he’s a thief and a bandit with altruistic goals …

And a noble-born knight back from the crusades, and a leader of a largish band of insurgents...

Unless, that is, a warlord class comes out that has 3 or more skills, expertise, and fighting styles. With any warlord class out he could be a warlord/rogue of some kind, but I’d always include rogue unless there is a bandit captain/rabble rouser sort of subclass.
Also,
Warlord: Aragorn, Cap, Glimmer (new She-Ra), many anime characters according to ppl in this thread.

Dumb, but related question.
Is there any way mechanically to do a shield wall in dungeons and dragons?

It's been done before as an AC (or AC & REF) bonus to adjacent allies, or variations thereupon, and yeah, it worked for as few as two characters.

if it can, that alone seriously justify the Warlord's role.

'Formations' - essentially combat style-like benefits that help everyone in said formation, a shield wall is an obvious example - wouldn't be a bad little option for warlords to facilitate.

 

[Garthanos]

Neither the warlord nor the evil stepmother need special mechanics to represent them.

Hmmm I think people are telling you the Warlord does need them and that they are already existent in 5e in diluted form in multiple classes and or sub-classes.

 

[Tony Vargas]

So what? Want some advice? You're never going to change how something feels to a person. If that person doesn't feel like those people feel like a warlord, nothing will change that. It's subjective. Just like nothing will change your mind that those people do feel like a warlord. It's all just our opinions, man.

I don't think the objective is or should be to get people who don't want to play Warlords to want to play them, rather, the objective is to get them to stop trying to get in the way of the people who do want to play them.

It's that simple, a mere call for tolerance of others' preferences.

 

[PsyzhranV2]

An evil stepmother is a common archetype found in literature. Evil stepmothers generally mistreat their step-daughters and create conflict within a family. Should evil stepmother be a class in D&D? Why or why not?

A whinging pedant is a common archetype found in real life. Whinging pedants generally mistreat their peers and cause conflict in physical and virtual social spaces. Should whinging pedant be a class in D&D? Why or why not?

If you want to play a warlord, then roll up a Banneret and ask your DM for troops and followers. It's that simple.

Just in case you got your eye test done and can read better, hear it is again:

Banneret is a setting-neutral name for the PDK which is an upgrade of a FR specific archetype (That was one of the last PRCs added to Neverwinter Nights for some reason) that touches on some aspects of the Warlord but not all. The Battlemaster is the go-to semi-warlord, given the PDK is also notoriously weak

That's like saying "Oh, yeah, 5E has a psion, its just called the psionic wizard".