The 'Wonderland'-Inspired Faces of the RAGE OF DEMONS

Take a peek at some of the art from D&D's upcoming Rage of Demons storyline. This art is by Richard Whitters, who is the art director for D&D and used to work as a concept artist for Magic: the Gathering. WotC's Chris Perkins has indicated that one of the influences on Rage of Demons was Alice in Wonderland, and I think the influence is clear when you look at the characters below.

Take a peek at some of the art from D&D's upcoming Rage of Demons storyline. This art is by Richard Whitters, who is the art director for D&D and used to work as a concept artist for Magic: the Gathering. WotC's Chris Perkins has indicated that one of the influences on Rage of Demons was Alice in Wonderland, and I think the influence is clear when you look at the characters below.



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OUGALOP, kuo-toa cave cricket catcher extraordinaire.

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YUK YUK and SPIDERBAIT, goblin adrenaline junkies.

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THE SOCIETY OF BRILLIANCE, the Mensa of the Underdark.

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GLABBAGOOL, awakened gelatinous cube.

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RUMPADUMP and STOOL, myconid followers.

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PRINCE DERENDIL, a quaggoth who thinks he's elven royalty.

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TOPSY and TURVY, svirfneblin wererat siblings.

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THE PUDDING KING, svirfneblin devotee (i.e., flunky) of Juiblex the Faceless Lord.

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D&D's "Legion of Doom." What a wonderful bunch of malcontents.
 

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pemerton

Legend
I always felt the point of HPL's stories wasn't so much evil, as uncaring indifference on the part of the cosmos, and mankind's futile striving like ants under the heels of an oblivious force.

Sure feels like evil to the humans, but the cosmic horror is the soul crushing insignificance and futility of it all.
What you describe is, more or less, why I don't find HPL very horrifying.

The "uncaring indifference" of the cosmos, and the mind-destroying character of non-Euclidean geometries of space-time, might have contradicted a certain Victorian Whiggish-ness of outlook, but seem fairly mundane to me.
 

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pemerton

Legend
From an NPC's perspective, you'd still have to make the case that what those spells are detecting is actually good and evil, as opposed to conformity and naivete, etc. What do you suppose Henry VIII's reaction is to being told he's Neutral Evil? "I guess I am then"? Or "off with the priest's head!" for lese majesty and lying to royalty?
I think the testimony problem is overrated - most "ultimate evils" in D&D are spellcasters, who can scrutinise themselves. And it's always possible to lend the non-spellcasting monarch the ring of spell storing, or whatever it might be, so that s/he can perform a self-scan.

The real issue is that the game posits a type of unmediated epistemic access to evaluative truth, as characterised using the two-word alignment labels. Whereas in the real world, evaluative facts supervene upon other facts, which mediate epistemic access.

To give a non-moral example: the beauty of a painting supervenes on its visual appearance. And epistemic access to a painting's beauty is mediated through visual perception of it. There is no direct cognition of a painting's beauty except via cognition of its appearance. (There can be indirect knowledge, of course, eg someone tells you that it is beautiful.)

Imagine if, in D&D, we had a convention of using "Beautiful", "Plain" and "Ugly" as a set of descriptors for the visual appearance of all objects and creatures, and there was a Detect Beauty spell. Exactly the same issues would come up, because the game would provide answers to questions about beauty or ugly while bypassing the question of what the actual visual appearance on which those answers supervene.

And then, instead of alignment debates, we'd have debates about whether Quasimodo (who statblock says "ugly") is irredeemably ugly, and there would be contrarians who assert that he's really beautiful (because all human beings are beautiful in their own way), etc.

(Also: while questions of objectivity vs relativism/subjectivism about value are interesting, they are orthogonal to the above issues. The tensions that D&D's alignment rules create aren't a result of any assumption of objectivity over relativism, but rather out of the attempt to separate evaluative judgements - via alignment labels and detection magic - from the base on which value facts supervene.)
 

I think the testimony problem is overrated - most "ultimate evils" in D&D are spellcasters, who can scrutinise themselves. And it's always possible to lend the non-spellcasting monarch the ring of spell storing, or whatever it might be, so that s/he can perform a self-scan.

The real issue is that the game posits a type of unmediated epistemic access to evaluative truth, as characterised using the two-word alignment labels. Whereas in the real world, evaluative facts supervene upon other facts, which mediate epistemic access.

I'm a little bit confused because you handwave the issue in paragraph one by calling it "the testimony problem", and then seem to build on that to refer to alignment spells as epistemic truth in paragraph two. To me, paragraph one seems pretty fundamental: Know Alignment spells (which barely exist in 5E anyway, in fact I can only think of sprites and Robes of the Archmagi/Books of Vile Darkness/Exalted Deeds as being alignment-aware) are only epistemic truth if you accept them as epistemic truth. If I have the right personality for it, I can commit mass murder of thousands in order to perhaps save the human race from utter destruction[1], and if my Robe of the Good Archmagi ceases to function, who cares? It's just an object, and it's less important than my mission. [Or at least, that's one way a given character might view the situation.]

The game posits an unmediated access to consistent effects, which get labelled as "good" and "evil" in the metagame--but there's no need for a PC or even a player to accept that label. If my DM says I'm evil (or good), and I disagree--well, he controls the world but he doesn't control my mind as a player. It's just a label.

In practice I expect the DM/player disagreement to pop up more frequently with regard to "good" than "evil", since different people have various degrees of stringency with which they use the word "good." In my view, most (N)PCs are neutral unless they make a concerted effort to be selfless and kind--and my definition holds even if I'm playing in the game of a DM who makes most PCs "good" by default.

And yes, that would apply equally to a "Detect Beauty" spell, or a "Detect Yummy," with the caveat that I'm reliant on the DM to transmit the sensory effects to me as a player before I can make up my mind about them. But if he says it tastes like woodsmoke, and I like woodsmoke, then it's yummy even if the DM intended it to be yucky.

[1] Taravangian is who I have in mind.
 
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pemerton

Legend
I'm a little bit confused because you handwave the issue in paragraph one by calling it "the testimony problem", and then seem to build on that to refer to alignment spells as epistemic truth in paragraph two.
They're two distinct issues.

The question of whether the cleric or paladin who tells the king that he is evil is lying, or not, is a question about testimony. It can be overcome by having the king cast the spell himself, in a self-scan.

I often see the testimony issue presented as a usable wedge, for gameplay purposes, between alignment truths and NPC self-conceptions. But the relatively easy possibility of self-scanning (especially by demons and devils, who in many editions have their own alignment-detecting magic) means that the wedge is pretty thin.

The deep source of tension is that, in the real world, we have direct epistemic access to facts of value only via our epistemic access to the non-value facts on which they supervene; but D&D posits that facts of value can be known directly and immediately (metagame, via plonking down an alignment label; ingame, via using magic to read that alignment label), without the facts on which they supervene being known.

To give a simple example, in real life the question of whether someone is or isn't "irredeemably evil" supervenes upon such facts as their disposition (if any) to be brutal to others. The question can't be answered without forming a view about this (and many other) salient facts about their actions and dispositions.

Whereas in D&D, the game posits that I can write "chaotic evil" on an NPC's character sheet, without committing myself in any detail to what exactly that NPC's behaviour and dispositions will be. In a game in which moral evaluation is not to the fore, and characterisations are expected to be pretty broad-brush, that's fairly harmless: if I need to know more about the personality of Grugnur, the frost giant Jarl of G2, I can just extrapolate from fairy tales and legends about brutish giants, ogres and the like: let's say he is greedy, cruel and likes to suck the marrow out of the bones of his captives!

But in some moods (eg Planescape; or intentionally subtle political or character-focused play), D&D first writes down alignment labels, but then treats it as a further, open question what exactly that NPC's behaviour and dispositions will be. This is where the potential for incoherence between immediately posited values, and the non-value facts on which such value actually intervenes, arises.

If I have the right personality for it, I can commit mass murder of thousands in order to perhaps save the human race from utter destruction[1], and if my Robe of the Good Archmagi ceases to function, who cares? It's just an object, and it's less important than my mission. [Or at least, that's one way a given character might view the situation.]

The game posits an unmediated access to consistent effects, which get labelled as "good" and "evil" in the metagame--but there's no need for a PC or even a player to accept that label.
The idea that "good" and "evil" are purely metagame labels is a contentious interpretation in every edition of the game prior to 5e, and I suspect would be regarded as contentious by plenty of 5e players too.

For instance, the outer planes (in the standard AD&D PHB appendix 1 cosmology) are aligned, and known to be so by those who live in the gameworld.

In pre-4e editions, spells like "Detect Evil" and "Know Alignment" provide ingame information using the language of alignment. I guess a character could argue that "the cosmos" got it wrong, but it's not exactly clear what that would even mean - eg if the Abyss is not necessarily evil, then what property is the Detect Evil spell detecting? The property of being disliked and repudiated by the cosmos? From the point of view both of metaphysics of morals, and of gameplay, if you want to create the conceptual space for individual's to make their own moral judgements, I think it's easier just to drop alignment as a part of the gameworld.

If this path is taken, alignment might still be a useful personality shorthand in monster statblocks, which is roughly how 4e treats it, and perhaps how 5e tends to treat it (with the odd exception). But then you don't need to say that the Abyss and its inhabitants are irredeemably evil. It's enough to say that the Abyss is a violent and unpleasant place whose inhabitants are prone to vicious displays of cruelty and destruction. To pick up on [MENTION=2067]Kamikaze Midget[/MENTION]'s example, if the PCs then meet a demon who seems not to be prone to such displays, they (and their players) can form their own moral judgements.
 

Rejuvenator

Explorer
How does everyone here feel about the ultimate evil presented in the Cthulhu mythos? Is an evil with alien motivations still interesting?
Cthulhu mythos is about humanity's powerless and insignificance in the cosmos and a fantasy of alien things we cannot comprehend. I happen to find that very interesting (in an era where we want everything to be at our control), although a lot of that is diminished in D&D. D&D heroes generally feel empowered and successful, and the Far Realm isn't all that strange compared to the rest of the multiverse.

I also find that a lot of horror and tension comes with the disturbing machinations of the freaky cultists and minions that seek to summon the Great Old Ones and their spawn.
 

Morlock

Banned
Banned
Yay! Saturday morning cartoon-level caricatures with silly names! Now I don't know about you, but this screams "terrifying underdark story involving demons and mad villains" to me.

Add in Drizz't and I'm pretty sure this will be the most awesomest of awesome $60 story-books the world has ever seen!

^_^

Paul L. Ming

PS: In case you missed it...that whole post was SARCASM. Just FYI. In other words, I am not a fan of this new "multi-media story" thing they're doing. Ick.
This. The art's good. The art direction?

I was just licking my chops thinking about Rage of Demons. Until this.
 

They're two distinct issues.

The question of whether the cleric or paladin who tells the king that he is evil is lying, or not, is a question about testimony. It can be overcome by having the king cast the spell himself, in a self-scan.

I often see the testimony issue presented as a usable wedge, for gameplay purposes, between alignment truths and NPC self-conceptions. But the relatively easy possibility of self-scanning (especially by demons and devils, who in many editions have their own alignment-detecting magic) means that the wedge is pretty thin.

Hmmm, looks like I assumed too much shared context when I sketched the scenario. (Due to my background, I tend to assume that everybody is thoroughly familiar with the Old Testament, which isn't really true on the Internet.) To explain: in history and legend, whenever somebody lies to a king about his alignment, they don't lie to tell him he's evil, they lie to tell him he's good. (Think: Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah to king Ahab of Israel, or what they asked Sir Thomas Moore to do for Henry VIII.) When someone tells the king he's evil, the messenger gets shot. A messenger has zero incentive to lie and tell a king he's evil when he's not--but he does have an incentive to lie and tell an evil king that he's fine. Furthermore, the king has zero incentive to "cast" Know Alignment on himself, because he doesn't actually want to know the answer, at least judging from the historical record.

So the scenario, as I intended to present it, is entirely about the reliability of labels ("epistemic" as you call it) and not about the reliability of witnesses. The king doesn't have to accept the judgment of the objective witness (Know Alignment spell/prophet/holy sword/whatever), and usually doesn't.

The deep source of tension is that, in the real world, we have direct epistemic access to facts of value only via our epistemic access to the non-value facts on which they supervene; but D&D posits that facts of value can be known directly and immediately (metagame, via plonking down an alignment label; ingame, via using magic to read that alignment label), without the facts on which they supervene being known.

And that is equally the case in D&D.

*snip* For instance, the outer planes (in the standard AD&D PHB appendix 1 cosmology) are aligned, and known to be so by those who live in the gameworld.

In pre-4e editions, spells like "Detect Evil" and "Know Alignment" provide ingame information using the language of alignment. I guess a character could argue that "the cosmos" got it wrong, but it's not exactly clear what that would even mean - eg if the Abyss is not necessarily evil, then what property is the Detect Evil spell detecting? The property of being disliked and repudiated by the cosmos? From the point of view both of metaphysics of morals, and of gameplay, if you want to create the conceptual space for individual's to make their own moral judgements, I think it's easier just to drop alignment as a part of the gameworld.

If this path is taken, alignment might still be a useful personality shorthand in monster statblocks, which is roughly how 4e treats it, and perhaps how 5e tends to treat it (with the odd exception). But then you don't need to say that the Abyss and its inhabitants are irredeemably evil. It's enough to say that the Abyss is a violent and unpleasant place whose inhabitants are prone to vicious displays of cruelty and destruction. To pick up on [MENTION=2067]Kamikaze Midget[/MENTION]'s example, if the PCs then meet a demon who seems not to be prone to such displays, they (and their players) can form their own moral judgements.

This bolded section is what I've been saying. Certainly I don't buy the notion that the inhabitants of the Abyss would cop to being "evil." They would tell you that that's just how the world is, and everyone who says it's different is just fooling themselves and/or you. "Everybody has a price," they would say. Dale Carnegie's observation that everyone is a good guy in their own heads applies equally to fiends and devils, even if they are objectively, irreversibly awful. Or rather, it applies to any fiends I'd be interested in having in my game.

TLDR; human feelings and blackest evil are not mutually exclusive. They can go hand in hand with no trouble at all.
 

Rejuvenator

Explorer
This bolded section is what I've been saying. Certainly I don't buy the notion that the inhabitants of the Abyss would cop to being "evil." They would tell you that that's just how the world is, and everyone who says it's different is just fooling themselves and/or you. "Everybody has a price," they would say. Dale Carnegie's observation that everyone is a good guy in their own heads applies equally to fiends and devils, even if they are objectively, irreversibly awful. Or rather, it applies to any fiends I'd be interested in having in my game.
An interesting option is that fiends (and angels) cannot reflect on that, because they don't have freedom of choice and/or sentience in that specific regard. That morality of choice, which is a mix of gut feeling and cerebral higher-level functions for us, are more like animal instincts for them. In this scenario, if you asked a demon if it thought it was a good guy, it wouldn't really understand or answer the question the way you meant it.

A demon's desire to murder non-minions or non-demons might be nearly uncontrollable. The Abyss might purposefully create demons that way (with the purposeful exception of spawning a demon that could, say, fulfill a purpose in Sigil) and any abberations (ie., demons that are born weak with compassion) die off through an Abyssal version of survival of the fittest.

And/or a demon might not have self-awareness of morality/ethics - it can't tell the difference between good and bad, has no such instinct, although an intelligent demon might academically learn, for example, that unsanctioned murder is considered anti-social in many human societies. But it doesn't feel the distinction. IOW, amoral and sociopathic. For that demon, goodness is just a bunch of rules that certain gods made up to control their worshippers.
 
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An interesting option is that fiends (and angels) cannot reflect on that, because they don't have freedom of choice and/or sentience in that regard. That morality of choice, which is a mix of gut feeling and cerebral higher-level functions for us, are more like animal instincts for them. In this scenario, if you asked a demon if it thought it was a good guy, it wouldn't really understand or answer the question the way you meant it.

You could do that. I don't personally find "demons have no freedom of choice/sentience" to be an interesting scenario but some people do. I'll save that for murdermachines like bulettes, golems, and intellect devourers: mindless beasts and creatures designed as tools to specific ends.
 
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Staffan

Legend
You could do that. I don't personally find "demons have no freedom of choice/sentience" to be an interesting scenario but some people do. I'll save that for murdermachines like bulettes, golems, and intellect devourers: mindless beasts and creatures designed as tools to specific ends.

I liked the interpretation Keith Baker had for Eberron's outsiders: on rare occasion, an demon (or other alignment-based outsider) could switch alignment, but then they'd cease to be demons. They'd turn into something else.
 

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