D&D 5E The Wonkiness of Tool Proficiency

[Paraxis]

I don't find Tool Proficiencies confusing on their own. (You're either proficient or not. That's pretty straightforward.)

The only issue I have is with the Skill/Tool overlaps, like Musical Instrument and Perform.

Performance just mentions music, I interpret that as singing and not playing instruments, so if you want to play a lute or organ that is the tool proficiency and singing falls under performance.

But yeah chalk me up as another person who dislikes the tool proficiency system, no other rpg feels the need to complicate things with this kind of division. I am fine with characters using dagger tips to pick locks with disadvantage, or their shield as a drum, random stuff in a pantry as a herbalism kit, stuff like that.

Would much rather just have Thievery, Herbalism, Craft, Disguise as skills.

 

[Kalshane]

Performance just mentions music, I interpret that as singing and not playing instruments, so if you want to play a lute or organ that is the tool proficiency and singing falls under performance.

But yeah chalk me up as another person who dislikes the tool proficiency system, no other rpg feels the need to complicate things with this kind of division. I am fine with characters using dagger tips to pick locks with disadvantage, or their shield as a drum, random stuff in a pantry as a herbalism kit, stuff like that.

Would much rather just have Thievery, Herbalism, Craft, Disguise as skills.

The point of the tool proficiencies is they require something physical in order to use them, though. It makes it clear that you can't, as per the earlier example, pick a lock with your thumb (or just give it a good whack Fonzie-style, though that could be kind of cool.) I'd have no problem, as DM, with a PC trying to MacGuyver a solution using items at hand (with Disadvantage as mentioned) but they'd have to have something to work with. If the PC is hanging naked from the ceiling by his ankles, he's not going to be able to use his Thieves Tools proficiency to escape. He doesn't have anything to work with. (A high-DC Dexterity: Acrobatics check to wriggle free, on the other hand, is perfectly acceptable.)

 

[aramis erak]

I don't find Tool Proficiencies confusing on their own. (You're either proficient or not. That's pretty straightforward.)

The only issue I have is with the Skill/Tool overlaps, like Musical Instrument and Perform.

I had the same issue... but then I realized: Perform isn't Play... It's Sing, Dance, and Act only!

You want to emulate Mr. Pianoman? You don't need perform. You just need Piano Proficiency, and preferably, expertise in piano.
You want to emulate Ingwe Malmstein? Rogue, low cha, stupidly high dex, expertise in Electric Guitar.
You want to emulate Elton John? Rogue, Expertise in Perform and Piano, high charisma and dex.
You want to emulate Boyz2men? Perform only...

 

[Ed_Laprade]

My thinking with disadvantage was that the rogue was macguyvering his way past the lock using the tip of a dagger and a belt buckle, that kind of thing, not just straight-up using his thumb.
-TG

Absolutely! Female character picks a lock with a hairpin, and if searched, doesn't have any criminal equipment on her person.

And, as ExploderWizard said, skills are what you learn. The rules, or at least the wording of them, aren't as good as they should have been.

So, House Rule time!

 

[I'm A Banana]

There is no training for new skills in the Basic rules of which I am aware.

I think of skills in 5e as something like "subability scores" form the old 2e Skills and Powers -- particular aspects of an ability score that you're good at or not, more granularity than "It's just a DEX check!"

I am fine with characters using dagger tips to pick locks with disadvantage, or their shield as a drum, random stuff in a pantry as a herbalism kit, stuff like that.

I wonder -- would you also be fine with a character who has "combat proficiency" that lets them deal 1d8 damage with a weapon attack and get an AC of, I dunno, 14, regardless of their actual equipment?

There's certainly a viable D&D in there where no one gives a crap about their equipment spaces on their character sheet (I kind of lean this way myself more often than not). I don't know that I'd put it as "standard," but I'm personally rather fond of the concept.

That said, I think one place where tool proficiencies shine is in getting rid of monolithic ability scores and niches. It lets you do things like play a cleric of a god of thieves and dump Dex without suddenly being incapable of picking a lock or disarming a trap. It also gives the DM flexibility to leverage other ability scores when it's relevant -- sometimes maybe your CON makes you a better lockpicker because you need to maintain concentration. Sometimes maybe your INT helps you figure out the mechanism. Maybe the trap is magical and your CHA helps you convince the bound spirit not to retaliate!

Heck, you could retain that element of tool proficiencies and say, "I don't care if you have the actual tool or not." And other DMs might let them make a check at disadvantage.

For me, a lot of the value is in the division between "this task is something inherent to you that depends directly on one ability score, that those without skill can try" and "this task is something you can't otherwise do, and depends on different ability scores depending on the context."

(Kind of similar to the old distinction between being able to make a check untrained or not)

 

[Tormyr]

I had the same issue... but then I realized: Perform isn't Play... It's Sing, Dance, and Act only!

You want to emulate Mr. Pianoman? You don't need perform. You just need Piano Proficiency, and preferably, expertise in piano.
You want to emulate Ingwe Malmstein? Rogue, low cha, stupidly high dex, expertise in Electric Guitar.
You want to emulate Elton John? Rogue, Expertise in Perform and Piano, high charisma and dex.
You want to emulate Boyz2men? Perform only...

Victor Borge: piano + charisma

 

[ZombieRoboNinja]

Nice thing about tool proficiencies (in tandem with the training rules) is that your PCs have a way to learn to use wacky new technology they come across in their inter planar travels. Tool proficiency: Helicopter please!

 

[BigVanVader]

It makes it clear that you can't, as per the earlier example, pick a lock with your thumb (or just give it a good whack Fonzie-style, though that could be kind of cool.)

I'm now going to make the Fonz as a Rogue, and just have him whack traps.

 

[Paraxis]

I wonder -- would you also be fine with a character who has "combat proficiency" that lets them deal 1d8 damage with a weapon attack and get an AC of, I dunno, 14, regardless of their actual equipment?

Not in D&D, but in 13th Age yes the system is basically built to support that. D&D already has rules for improvised weapons.

I'm now going to make the Fonz as a Rogue, and just have him whack traps.

I did this in 4e with a Pixie Thief, in 4e having thieve's tools gave you a +2 bonus not having them didn't impose a penalty, so my pixie thief would just "Fonzie" open all the locks and disable the traps. I had my doll sized thieve's tools in case I felt like I needed them.

 

[MerricB]

The important thing to remember is that the tool lets you add your proficiency or expertise to an ability check (not a skill check) while using the tools.

It is really worth noting that there is no such thing as a skill check in 5E.

There are ability checks, saving throws and attack rolls.

Skill and tool proficiencies are used with ability checks.

Cheers!