D&D 5E The Wonkiness of Tool Proficiency

[Pandamonium87]

I like to use Tool proficiencies also in place of skills if the topic is related to the tool itself (e.g. an INT-based Lumberjack's tool check to understand the solidity of a wooden structure, or an INT-based Chess game to create a battle strategy).

 

[Ahrimon]

As far as niche protection goes that is blown out of the water if any character can just pick up a level in any class.

I'm pretty sure that you don't get extra skill proficiencies from multi-classing, so the character that started rogue and bard would still be ahead in skills.

 

[Ahrimon]

My problem with skills versus tools is what came first, the chicken or the egg, and how do you determine ad-hoc skill or tool use? If tools enhance skill use, then you can use other tools based on how good your skill is.

I think the best way to internalize it is to forget about skill or tool use. There is no skill or tool use in the game. It's all ability checks with a proficiency bonus if you have it. Whether it is a tool proficiency or a skill proficiency depends on the situation.

 

[Chthonic]

I'm pretty sure that you don't get extra skill proficiencies from multi-classing, so the character that started rogue and bard would still be ahead in skills.

Actually, you do get an extra skill if you multiclass into bard, ranger or rogue. In the case of rogues, you get thieves tools proficiency also, and with bards, a musical instrument

 

[ExploderWizard]

I'm pretty sure that you don't get extra skill proficiencies from multi-classing, so the character that started rogue and bard would still be ahead in skills.

No you don't get all of them and that's fine. I am pointing out the silliness of restricting a few skills to someone who picks up a second class while having no problem whatsoever with the fact that the character can suddenly throw firebolts at will or toss out a thunderwave with nary an HOUR of instruction.

That doesn't seem to be an issue but should they wish to suddenly be trained in investigation or something- THAT's CRAZY TALK!

 

[am181d]

No you don't get all of them and that's fine. I am pointing out the silliness of restricting a few skills to someone who picks up a second class while having no problem whatsoever with the fact that the character can suddenly throw firebolts at will or toss out a thunderwave with nary an HOUR of instruction.

That doesn't seem to be an issue but should they wish to suddenly be trained in investigation or something- THAT's CRAZY TALK!

They're limiting the number of skills for balance reasons, not to maintain verisimilitude.

If it bothers you that someone can start casting spells that quickly, it's easy enough to establish fluff around that: Establish that folks are studying on the side or provide some sort of mystic trigger, etc.

 

[ExploderWizard]

They're limiting the number of skills for balance reasons, not to maintain verisimilitude.

If it bothers you that someone can start casting spells that quickly, it's easy enough to establish fluff around that: Establish that folks are studying on the side or provide some sort of mystic trigger, etc.

Already taken care of- 250 days & 250 gp same as for learning a language or tool.

 

[bganon]

No you don't get all of them and that's fine. I am pointing out the silliness of restricting a few skills to someone who picks up a second class while having no problem whatsoever with the fact that the character can suddenly throw firebolts at will or toss out a thunderwave with nary an HOUR of instruction.

That doesn't seem to be an issue but should they wish to suddenly be trained in investigation or something- THAT's CRAZY TALK!

Multiclassing is explicitly opt-in by the DM, so it's only firebolts at will with no instruction if the DM says so. And the examples in the text make it pretty clear that there should be in-game justification.

 

[Sadrik]

Tool proficiencies are not analogous to skill proficiencies: they are analogous to weapon proficiencies and armor proficiencies.

The more I think about it, the more it seems that skills are the odd man out for not requiring an object. Then this makes me wonder if unarmed strike is a weapon proficiency or a skill proficiency...

This is not entirely true. You do not learn long sword proficiency or chain mail proficiency. You learn Heavy Armor proficiency a whole class of armors and you learn martial weapon proficiency again a large class of items. These are in my mind more synonymous with the opposite of what you are saying in that you learn a class of features with a skill and potentially have multiple things you can do. Meanwhile disguise kit tool is not as robust.

I think you make an excellent point though, in that there is this difference in interpretation between how proficiency is applied in learning these things. I would have like to see weapon proficiencies drawn more into skills too. Though that would be different than in previous editions of the game.

It may have looked something like this.
STR
Athletics
Simple power weapons
Martial power weapons
Light armor
Medium armor
Heavy armor

DEX
Simple finesse weapons
Martial finesse weapons
etc.

In this way, you have all proficiency use tied into one system instead of 5 (skills, tools, weapons, armor, languages). [armor and languages do not add proficiency - though armor encumbrance could be modified by proficiency and languages could require an ability check]

My biggest beef with tools is what someone else eloquently said.

Yes, it's counter-intuitive to think that knowledge or skill somehow vanishes in the absence of a certain tool, but that's just because the name is misleading.

The knowledge of how to use the tool is what is important not if the tool is present or not. At least that is how I see it in my mind.

 

[JoeCrow]

I like the idea of ability bonus giving a time discount on proficiency training, but I'm thinking that 250 days for skill proficiency might be too short. I can see 250 as the base for tool/language proficiency, but I'm thinking that for actual skill proficiency, I'mma bump it up to a full year. I'm also thinking that certain types of tool proficiency shouldn't take that long to master; like most games and maybe land vehicles.

So, what've we got for the default tools that you can get proficiency in? There's all the

artisan's tools
musical instruments
navigator's tools
thieves' tools

there's the kits,

disguise kit
forgery kit
herbalism kit
poisoner's kit

there's all the gaming sets,

and land and water vehicles.

I think most gaming sets I'd set at something short like a month or something, unless it's something crazy like "elven 4-dimensional hyperchess" or something. Really, how long does it take to learn a game? And it's not like it's a major powerboost, being able to play poker. Vehicles I'd probably set at six months, and I'm thinking that pretty much everything else works at a base of 250 days. Might boost that to a year for some of the artisan's tools, like jeweler's tools or alchemist supplies or the herbalism or poisoner's kit. And then let folks with high Int or Wis or Dex, (depending on the tool/kit type) get a 10% time discount per bonus point.