The YAARGH Armor Revision

[IndyPendant]

DR does not affect energy damage.

Oops....duh. I knew that; (or, at least, should have). Sorry. : )

...a world with a believable economy, rather than a combat-balanced one.

Er...how believable, in all honesty, *can* a world based on 3e be? By all means, create it as you would, but by trying to create a believable world, you end up opening a huge can of worms, I think. Your choice though.

I think, however, that if you permitted armour for example to have a DR of 1 for Medium and 2 for Heavy--against *everything*, including energy, magic, etc (excepting maybe only poison) every time damage is rolled against that char, you'd find heavy armours used a lot more often.

That's just a guess though, I fully admit; I haven't experimented yet to find if this is true, nor am I confident enough about it as is to just insert it into a game of mine yet. So take my suggestion with as much skepticism as you wish. : )

 

[green slime]

I think in part the difference in steel prices may be attributed to differing standards required to make a steel mesh (chainmail) as opposed to a steel plate.

If I recall correctly, the major armour producing centres would have been dominated by rich "master craftsmen", who had teams of poorly paid craftsmen and apprentices doing the work. This too would go some way in explaining the difference in price.

It also required far less technical expertise to throw together a chainmail shirt, as compared to fitting a suit of full armour. Chainmail shirts could be created by the local village smith. No mere blacksmith ever forged a "full plate" armour worn by a french knight in the fifteenth century.

Thus the difference in price.

So you can't just look at the amount of material contained in the product, nor the wages of those that produce it, you must also examine the necessary expertise required to produce it, and the wealth and status of the potential buyers (how much are they willing to pay?) and ease of manufacture. To do otherwise is like comparing the amount of material that goes into a Honda Prelude, and a MacLaren F1, and wondering where the difference in price comes from.

 

[seasong]

Er...how believable, in all honesty, *can* a world based on 3e be? By all means, create it as you would, but by trying to create a believable world, you end up opening a huge can of worms, I think. Your choice though.

I think the word I meant to use was "consistent" rather than "believable", but I also think you understood me anyway . As for the can of worms... well, yes, it is . That's why I'm trying not to get too deep into discussing it from a balance perspective!

I think, however, that if you permitted armour for example to have a DR of 1 for Medium and 2 for Heavy--against *everything*, including energy, magic, etc (excepting maybe only poison) every time damage is rolled against that char, you'd find heavy armours used a lot more often.

Well, for purposes of comparison, the story hour campaign I'm running just converts AC to DR directly and works just like that... and while it's slowed down some butt whoopin', it has not made the characters any kind of invulnerable.

That campaign is actually why I reduced it to closer to half-n-half, but didn't drop it entirely. Even with enemies that have DR 8/-, and even when the party has DR 4/- (from mage armor), both sides tend to suffer massive damage.

I'm still thinking about it, though. I may drop all of the DRs a point and raise the ACs a point, and see how that looks.

 

[seasong]

I think in part the difference in steel prices may be attributed to differing standards required to make a steel mesh (chainmail) as opposed to a steel plate.

This is correct. Mail takes time (3-6 months IIRC) to make, but does not take immense skill, as long as someone else provides the wire that you cut and twist and weave.

However, this is an issue of skill, not material cost. And a level 1 artisan can make plate armor in D&D, so skill's not really an issue, either.

If I recall correctly, the major armour producing centres would have been dominated by rich "master craftsmen", who had teams of poorly paid craftsmen and apprentices doing the work. This too would go some way in explaining the difference in price.

In the real world, a fighter can not take on a small army by himself. Nor can an artisan who is just starting out make full plate armor. You can ignore some parts of the D&D system and not others for your setting, which is why you are encouraged to use the 3e balance costs, but I am not choosing to ignore that aspect of the system; you are free to.

So you can't just look at the amount of material contained in the product, nor the wages of those that produce it, you must also examine the necessary expertise required to produce it, and the wealth and status of the potential buyers (how much are they willing to pay?) and ease of manufacture.

Are you saying that:
a) The necessary expertise to produce something is NOT reflected in the wages for a mason or craftsman in the DMG, p.149?
b) The ease of manufacture is NOT reflected in the time it takes said craftsman to produce the item?

I'm afraid that I really don't understand you at this point. There is merchant's markup, of course, but that should never be a 100% markup for all items, regardless of any factors. The price I provided is what it would cost to commission the item directly from the artisan, assuming no haggling.

To do otherwise is like comparing the amount of material that goes into a Honda Prelude, and a MacLaren F1, and wondering where the difference in price comes from.

Uh... no, no it isn't. Both have incredibly high design costs. In fact, when you buy an F1, you are also paying for the ten or twenty designs they built and tested before hitting on one that worked the way they wanted it to. You are also paying engineer wages, electricity bills, etc. There are also numerous expenses incurred by a modern auto company that did not exist in a medieval economy - lawyers to protect the trademarks, patents, and "look and feel", layers and layers of middle managers' wages, etc.

 

[green slime]

However, this is an issue of skill, not material cost. And a level 1 artisan can make plate armor in D&D, so skill's not really an issue, either.

But it is, as a level 1 artisan will have difficulty meeting the DC18 required.

I suppose if you granted him Max ranks (4), +2 Stat mod, and +2 masterwork tools he could then take 10. But 14 in a stat is pretty remarkable for a non-remarkable NPC, and how can he afford the masterwork tools?

Of course, one could even argue about the validity of the DC, perhaps it should have been higher (my opinion, but nothing that I get so worked up about I implement in my games)

In the real world, a fighter can not take on a small army by himself. Nor can an artisan who is just starting out make full plate armor.

IRL small group has indeed fought an army to a standstill, for a limited amount of time. Even in a standup fight, given the correct terrain. The greek unit of homosexuals that fought up in a mountain pass against overwhelming numbers of Persians (I wish I could remember the name of this unit or the place of the battle). In the end they were all slaughtered, but they caused the Persians incredible loses.


Or the story of Bravo Two Zero, when one of the SAS men stayed behind and held off an Iraq division for several minutes, singlehandedly. (He was shot and killed in the end...)

Given my supposition about an average low level artisan, without access to masterwork tools (which he might have were he working for a master armoursmith) he a) couldn't succeed with a take ten, b) would take much longer, and risk botching it all.

Are you saying that:
a) The necessary expertise to produce something is NOT reflected in the wages for a mason or craftsman in the DMG, p.149?
b) The ease of manufacture is NOT reflected in the time it takes said craftsman to produce the item?

Well without looking it up, (don't have the DMG here) I would say
a) no, because does the DMG prices adjust for experience and skill (ranks) in a profession?
b) I was commenting this statement:

"Under the standard rules, 50 pounds of plate costs 750 GP in raw materials, but 40 pounds of chainmail only costs 75 GP in raw materials. Those last 10 pounds of metal must be some rare adamantine alloy, eh?"

In my mind regarding it as merely "raw materials" is an oversimplification. It is really a collection of resources which is wasted. These resources could be as varied as connections/contacts required to replace unusual tools and materials, travel expenses, design notes, coal, heating, rent, bribes to officials, basically anything that would be considered to be part of the "project" that is crafting "X".

I'm afraid that I really don't understand you at this point. There is merchant's markup, of course, but that should never be a 100% markup for all items, regardless of any factors. The price I provided is what it would cost to commission the item directly from the artisan, assuming no haggling.

Aha, but seldom could that actually be arranged, There are powerful guilds who are interested in maintaining their grip on this or that aspect of the economy, and if one "master artisan" choose to sell an armour at a reduced rate, you can be sure that he would loose his right to produce said item. Marks up have and are in many cases well beyond 100%. Especially on Luxury items. I know specifically of a sausage maker that produces the same sausage for two different marketing labels. One is marketted as a "luxury sausage" and costs nearly twice as much. Same content. Same manufacturer. And people PAY!!!

Just look at the prices of clothing in the shop, or CDs.

Uh... no, no it isn't. Both have incredibly high design costs. In fact, when you buy an F1, you are also paying for the ten or twenty designs they built and tested before hitting on one that worked the way they wanted it to. You are also paying engineer wages, electricity bills, etc. There are also numerous expenses incurred by a modern auto company that did not exist in a medieval economy - lawyers to protect the trademarks, patents, and "look and feel", layers and layers of middle managers' wages, etc.

Once again I was refering to your comment on the "price of raw materials".

You'd be surprised at the layers of bureaucracy and leeches that can spontaneously appear out of the woodwork in any economy, modern or ancient when a good profit is to be had. Lawyers existed even then. Duties had to be paid to Duke and King, and to the Guild. Then protection money.

 

[Belphanior]

Soft Leather armor and Leather Plate are both completely useless and wastes of space.

The stats of Soft Leather can be copied with taking studded Cloth. This is 5 lbs lighter, has no penalties to checks, and all that for the great price of 1 more gp. Sweet deal.

The stats of Leather Plate can be copied by taking studded Hide. A bit heavier (5 lbs.), but 8 gp cheaper.


Really now, put some thought into this.

 

[seasong]

Hey green slime, before I start into the rest of this, I wanted to apologize for my tone. I'm not sure why I was being so snippy, but I will stop now - you are bringing up very good points, just on a topic I'm not as concerned with as the utility of the armor

So, with that said, I will now devote myself to the issue of cost, as it seems more important to my audience ,

But it is, as a level 1 artisan will have difficulty meeting the DC18 required.

I suppose if you granted him Max ranks (4), +2 Stat mod, and +2 masterwork tools he could then take 10. But 14 in a stat is pretty remarkable for a non-remarkable NPC, and how can he afford the masterwork tools?

You are forgetting skill focus. Masterwork tools are unnecessary. And 14 is not that far from center - 16% of the population has a 14 or higher in something, and 2.7% of the population (1 in 40 people) has an INT of 14 or higher. Even if you assume that 1% of the population is adventurers, that leaves 1.5-2.5% of the INT folks as craftsfolk, which is more than enough to supply every podunk village with an exceptional artisan. And if he's that, I don't think putting his one feat towards his most useful skill is out of the question.

Of course, one could even argue about the validity of the DC, perhaps it should have been higher (my opinion, but nothing that I get so worked up about I implement in my games)

Unfortunately, a higher DC (coupled with the correspondingly higher skill) simply results in a shorter time to manufacture. In fact, raising the DCs is the best way to make production easier for PCs. I still don't have a good set of rules for crafting - the question gets very complicated, very quickly.

IRL small group has indeed fought an army to a standstill, for a limited amount of time. Even in a standup fight, given the correct terrain. The greek unit of homosexuals that fought up in a mountain pass against overwhelming numbers of Persians (I wish I could remember the name of this unit or the place of the battle). In the end they were all slaughtered, but they caused the Persians incredible loses.

You have jumped from my one fighter example, requiring no terrain advantage whatsoever, to terrain-advantaged groups. And in most of those terrain-advantaged groups, the advantage was that the group didn't have to fight very many people at once.

Or the story of Bravo Two Zero, when one of the SAS men stayed behind and held off an Iraq division for several minutes, singlehandedly. (He was shot and killed in the end...)

Technology is a force multiplier. And this was not a standup fight. I don't think you really want to argue that D&D fighters have realistic capabilities - you're likely just responding to my snippy tone (see apology above).

Given my supposition about an average low level artisan, without access to masterwork tools (which he might have were he working for a master armoursmith) he a) couldn't succeed with a take ten, b) would take much longer, and risk botching it all.

Actually, increased skill has surprisingly little impact on the time it takes, unless you raise the DC simultaneously.

Well without looking it up, (don't have the DMG here) I would say
a) no, because does the DMG prices adjust for experience and skill (ranks) in a profession?

a1) And how does this impact a level 1 craftsman?
a2) No, the DMG prices don't. Not for crafters, anyway, although I think they should (I'm fond of 1 sp per level, as I tend to set "apprentice" at level 1-2, and professional at 3rd, so that dovetails nicely).
a3) Unfortunately, now I'm at work (sans DMG), but I did check a2 above before I left this morning. It's a flat 3 sp. Mercenaries DO get improvement by level, though.

b) I was commenting this statement:

"Under the standard rules, 50 pounds of plate costs 750 GP in raw materials, but 40 pounds of chainmail only costs 75 GP in raw materials. Those last 10 pounds of metal must be some rare adamantine alloy, eh?"

In my mind regarding it as merely "raw materials" is an oversimplification. It is really a collection of resources which is wasted. These resources could be as varied as connections/contacts required to replace unusual tools and materials, travel expenses, design notes, coal, heating, rent, bribes to officials, basically anything that would be considered to be part of the "project" that is crafting "X".

Steel costs the same whether it is beaten into plates or drawn into wire. It still requires the same effort of refinement. Mail has more unusual tools associated with it than plate (excepting helmets, which we still don't fully understand). There are no travel expenses, unless you count things which apply to both types of armor (acquiring the steel or tools, shipping to the owner). Coal, heating, rent and bribes are again very close to equal for both.

Furthermore, drawing steel into wire is something that the armorer generally hired someone else to do, by buying it pre-drawn. That is not conducive to believing that the raw materials should cost 10% of the plate!

Aha, but seldom could that actually be arranged,

My concern is not with the specific organizations or special interests or taxes in your campaign. This merely establishes the minimum profitable price, and you can set your social markup however you want. Although honestly, I should have put that in the rules - the problem with writing rules for yourself, and then posting them to a public forum

Once again I was refering to your comment on the "price of raw materials".

You'd be surprised at the layers of bureaucracy and leeches that can spontaneously appear out of the woodwork in any economy, modern or ancient when a good profit is to be had. Lawyers existed even then. Duties had to be paid to Duke and King, and to the Guild. Then protection money.

Ah. See, the way you worded it, I read it as a response to everything I said, and seemed to be ignoring my comments on wages. You seem to be wanting the system to include all of the lawyers, duties, etc... but these will vary from county to county, much less campaign to campaign. I provide the minimal profit margin - you can mark it up how you want.

To give an example: Let us assume that there is a 10% tax on all sales (and no other complications). Plate armor can now no longer be sold by the artisan for 200 GP, because his own wages would suffer a 20 GP cut. So he marks it up to 225 GP, gives 22.5 GP to the King, and pockets his wages plus an extra little bit for the time and administrative overhead of doing the taxes.

So, I could have set the price at 225 GP. But what if your kingdom has a tax rate of 20%? Do you try to reverse engineer my pricing?

You can also, very easily, simply double all prices due to guild presence. And then allow adventurers to haggle with the merchant to try to get it cut down a bit... and now you have a fair idea of what "unprofitable" is, so a merchant won't go that low, no matter what the dice say.

 

[seasong]

Soft Leather armor and Leather Plate are both completely useless and wastes of space.

The stats of Soft Leather can be copied with taking studded Cloth. This is 5 lbs lighter, has no penalties to checks, and all that for the great price of 1 more gp. Sweet deal.

True. That dropping of the penalty for 1 GP is a bit much. I will take out the reference to studded cloth (which is a bit nonsensical, anyway).

The stats of Leather Plate can be copied by taking studded Hide. A bit heavier (5 lbs.), but 8 gp cheaper.

Also true. In this case, however, I think that they are close enough (some people will want to save a few measly coins, some people will want to save a few measly pounds) that people might go either way on it and have made a reasonable choice.

Really now, put some thought into this.

What, no winkey smiley? No smiley at all to soften that statement?

I did put thought into this. And then I missed a few things. And since I missed a few things, I posted it here, so that someone else could point it out in a friendly manner. I will just assume, here, that you forgot to type the two characters for a smiley, and that the above was just a friendly ribbing.

 

[seasong]

In accordance with commentary, made the following revisions:

1) DR and AC modified slightly.
2) Better commentary on the pricing system.
3) Removed studded cloth armor as an option.

Further commentary still welcome. I would particularly like continued commentary on the AC and DR numbers. I'm thinking of bumping up the AC very slightly at the high end.

Also, I am still looking for a good way to handle the DEX modifier. If I have to, I will calculate it separately, but I would prefer a good way of linking it to the armor check penalty.

And finally, green slime, do the costs make more sense now?

 

[Belphanior]

What, no winkey smiley? No smiley at all to soften that statement?

You're right. I'm at work here and was pressed for time at the end of my post so I did a rushed job and forgot to put in a smilie. It was rude of me, and I apologize.