The YAARGH Armor Revision

[mythusmage]

The world your PC goes adventuring in.

To be blunt, you are being too dang cautious with this. What you've got now would work fine in a war game, but it doesn't work in an RPG. But it's a good start at a design tool.

To expand on my first point, not every type of armor is going to be available everywhere. Armor A may be the best armor ever made, but if it aint on sale in your home town, you can't buy it.

Now I present my take on the three types of armor.

Flexible: Max Dex: Full; Armor Check: 0; Spell Failure: 0%

Semi-rigid: Max Dex: -1; Armor Check: -1; Spell Failure: 5%

Rigid: Max Dex: -2; Armor Check: -2; Spell Failure: 10%

(The above assumes armor of average quality. Masterwork armor lowers penalties by 1 point (5%), while shoddy armor raises penalties by 1 point (5%))

Above you have the base. The material used, and the weight thereof, affects AC, DR, Max Dex, Armor Check, and Spell Failure. For example, a suit of light steel chain will alter the stats for flexible armor thusly:

Light Steel Chain: AC +3, DR 1, Max Dex -2, Armor Check -2, Spell Failure 10%. Weight: 40 pounds.

A suit of heavy steel chain would look like this:

Heavy Steel Chain: AC +7, DR 5, Max Dex -6, Armor Check -6, Spell Failure 30%. Weight, 80 pounds.

This is what I was talking about.

Remember, any RPG that consists of only one type of activity soon becomes boring.

 

[mythusmage]

It Just Occured to Me as I was Reading My Reply

Seasong, you are dividing armor into two types, each with three subtypes. I'm using three armor types, with two modifiers, what the armor is made of, and how heavy (thick) the material is.

Furthermore, you are concentrating on the game part, while I am more concerned with the roleplaying. So we have two different goals and two different ways of getting there.

I could get philosophical here and say that you appear to be using in-play metagaming whereas I am using pre-game metagaming. But since some sensitive soul might accuse me of trolling, I shall refrain.

 

[seasong]

Mythusmage: An alternate armor schema:

Design Style:
Flexible: Tunic & leggings, with cloth-like flexibility. The design has no impact on mobility, although the weight (and weight distribution) might cause penalties.

Semi-Rigid: The same as flexible armor, but with mini-plates, scales or other stiffening agents spread over the exterior surface to improve chances of deflection. The clothing is a bit stiffer due to their presence, but protection is marginally better.

Alternately, semi-rigid can be made with a few points of rigidity help blunt impact and transmit the force of key-point blows around the body. A somewhat stiff material hangs between the rigid points. The design has some impact on mobility due to the need for rigidity, but does not unduly restrict the individual.

Framework/Rigid: Plate armors are designed for maximum defense at the expense of mobility. A heavy internal structure, buttressing points, and rigid surfaces maximize the impact that can be absorbed and transmitted around the body.

Cloth-like Materials:
Copper mail
Bronze mail
Iron mail
Steel mail
Dwarven steel mail
Wood link mail
Ironwood link mail
Darkwood link mail
Adamantine mail
Stuffed, quilted cloth
Cow leather
Bazilisk leather
Young dragon leather

Semi-rigid Cloth Materials:
Copper scale
Bronze scale
Iron scale
Steel scale
Dwarven steel scale
Wood scale
Ironwood scale
Darkwood scale
Adamantine scale
Copper banding
Bronze banding
Iron banding
Steel banding
Dwarven steel banding
Wood banding
Ironwood banding
Darkwood banding
Adamantine banding
Boiled leather banding

Rigid Materials:
Copper plate
Bronze plate
Iron plate
Steel plate
Dwarven steel plate
Wood plate
Ironwood plate
Darkwood plate
Adamantine plate
Boiled leather plate
Large dragon scales

Weight:
To calculate weight, each style of armor has a base weight, and each material has a base multiplier. Multiply the base weight by the base multiplier. This is your "starting weight", which will give you an DR 1 for that armor. To get higher DR, multiply the starting weight by the final DR you want. Thus, if steel mail flexible armor has a base weight of 15 lbs and you want DR 4, it would weigh 60 lbs. To restate: DR x BASE WEIGHT x BASE MULTIPLIER

Cost:
Each material has a material cost (by weight), and each style of armor has a base multiplier (for labor). WEIGHT x BASE COST x STYLE MULTIPLIER

AC:
Flexible gives a +1 base; semi-rigid (either one) gives a +2 base; rigid gives a +3 base. Normal cloth gives a -1; most materials give a +0; and metals and woods (hard materials) give a +1. Finally, add +1 per 4 points of DR.

Etc.

Is this what you are looking for? (Only with base weights and costs, and base multipliers added in)

If it is, feel free to use the above, fill in whatever you feel is realistic for the materials, and run with it. It's a modification of my GURPS rules for similar stuff, but I'm not really attached to it.

Originally posted by mythusmage
Seasong, you are dividing armor into two types, each with three subtypes. I'm using three armor types, with two modifiers, what the armor is made of, and how heavy (thick) the material is.

This is not quite correct. I have three types of armor (one type is a halfway step between flex and rigid), and four weights for each. In addition, and I can only imagine that you didn't read this far, you can modify the basic armors by the material used. There are EIGHT basic armors, and you can make special materials for any of them... and those special materials can be better or worse, depending on the needs of your setting.

Furthermore, you are concentrating on the game part, while I am more concerned with the roleplaying. So we have two different goals and two different ways of getting there.

That is because the roleplaying part is not handled by the system, but by the imagination. If I sketch out some armor for Country B, I find it easier to eyeball it as belonging in the "light rigid" classification than to go through a complicated build process to determine its stats. If I want Country B to have poor steel and rotten design, I can just lower the stats and up the weight a bit - it takes me half a second, and provides an excellent way to make the country unique. Some design guidelines and examples might be nice (and I'm working on those), but a gearhead system for designing armor just wastes time I could have spent working on a plot.

I could get philosophical here and say that you appear to be using in-play metagaming whereas I am using pre-game metagaming. But since some sensitive soul might accuse me of trolling, I shall refrain.

I don't even understand what you mean by this, so I suppose that's for the best.

 

[handforged]

Re: It Just Occured to Me as I was Reading My Reply

I could get philosophical here and say that you appear to be using in-play metagaming whereas I am using pre-game metagaming. But since some sensitive soul might accuse me of trolling, I shall refrain.

edited crass comment

Wait a second, I did not refrain, and you didn't either. Granted I am falling prey to your troll, but you are arguing just to argue, and you're not helping develop the rules.

Seasong already said (I'll paraphrase) I understand what you are saying, but I disagree and I would rather continue developing this set of rules.

Now he has gone and developed another set of rules based on your ideas, but your argument on role-playing vs rules doesn't cut it. If you want to roleplay, then roleplay, don't use rules. Tell the rest of your group the properties of your armor, and then when you get in a fight, the DM will tell you how your armor fares. You could use Seasong's rules and get what you wanted by using an alternate material, like he has already posted. Just because his groupings have a listed AC and DR for each type doesn't mean you have a right to demand that he develop a system that doesn't use them because you don't want to spend the time to develop it yourself.

~hf

 

[seasong]

Handforged, while I appreciate the defense (and excellent paraphrase ), please edit out the comment about Mom - I'd rather keep the discourse reasonably civil, even if we disagree about rules.

 

[Kemrain]

Thank you, seasong.

- Kemrain the Sensitive Soul.

 

[green slime]

Re: It Just Occured to Me as I was Reading My Reply

I could get philosophical here and say that you appear to be using in-play metagaming whereas I am using pre-game metagaming. But since some sensitive soul might accuse me of trolling, I shall refrain.

Drivel. Absolute and utter drivel. Codswallop. Tauric Turd.

You didn't just put your foot in it, you swallowed it and asked for more.

 

[willpax]

The rules look good. I shall be adapting them to my world forthwith.

And if I ever get a chance to actually play D&D again, I'll try them out.

(with all the people asking for more, I thought you might like some unqualified praise).

 

[mythusmage]

Seasong, looks like we're on different paths here. So I'll go ahead and start another thread in this forum.

Long list of materials you've got there, BTW. But I don't see wood as making good 'chain' material. Banding and splint yes, but not chain.

One other thing. How old is wire drawing anyway? I thought it was rather new. What Medieval armorers used was little 'rods' of iron to make the links from. The modern technique of coiling stiff wire to make mail links being something developed by SCA armorers.

And now that I think of it, a rearranging of the materials lists would be a good idea. Say into; metals, leathers, bone and ivory, woods, cloth, exotics, combinations. With an additional division according to the form the material takes in the armor.

Examples:

Chain: Iron, steel, bronze.

Plate: Iron, steel, bronze, brass.

Brass is not included in chain since the links tend to be too frangible (breakable) to be useful. But it is in plate since it is durable enough for ceremonial duties. And it can take a good shine.

Finally, let me say that your system at its core is a bit too involved for me. I prefer to keep the basics, well, basic. What I look for is an elegance to design, and yours falls a tad short. A bit more refinement would do it a world of good.

(Must say you're handling my spoofing Better than some I could name.)

 

[seasong]

One other thing. How old is wire drawing anyway?

Piano wire was being made by pulling metal through hard steel plates as early as 1350, and possibly before. Mail existed before then, however, and I'm not sure when they started using the technique with mail.

And now that I think of it, a rearranging of the materials lists would be a good idea. Say into; metals, leathers, bone and ivory, woods, cloth, exotics, combinations. With an additional division according to the form the material takes in the armor.

You could certainly do this - from an organizational standpoint, it would be easier to read, but more difficult to add new and exotic materials to. So it depends on whether you want something that is easily expanded (for those creative GMs) or something that is easily searchable.

(Must say you're handling my spoofing Better than some I could name.)

If you are spoofing, please don't. It contributes nothing, and takes away much.