The YAARGH Armor Revision

I think handforged hit on something interesting. Here's another take on this. I have a few issues with it, but it fits in perfectly with my originally stated thesis (of what "I am displeased..." with). The costs, as always, will see a great deal of markup, according to their value to those who buy them.

Studs will need to be revised: perhaps light & medium flexible armor only.
Code:
[color=skyblue]
[u]Armor           Type    AC  DR   CHK    DEX  Wiz    Wt  GP[/u]
Minimal Armor   Flex    +1  0/-  +0     max  0%     10  1
Light Flexible  Flex    +1  1/-  -1     max  10%    20  5
Medium Flexible Flex    +2  1/-  -1     1/2  10%    30  15
Light Rigid     Rigid   +2  2/-  -2     1/2  20%    30  25
Heavy Flexible  Flex    +3  2/-  -2     1/4  20%    40  40
Medium Rigid    Rigid   +3  3/-  -3     1/4  30%    40  60
Heavy Rigid     Rigid   +4  3/-  -4     1/8  40%    50  80
Maximum Armor   Rigid   +4  4/-  -4     1/8  40%    65  200[/color]
 

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seasong said:
1) Mail was not automated. It was industrialized, but not automated. There is an immense economic impact which you are ignoring here.

I'm referring to the practice of having kids being paid near-slave wages drawing the wire, more kids rolling it, more kids clipping the rings, and adults working for cheap knitting the final product.

All in the same building - it was as close to assembly line automation as you get. Just because they're humans doesn't mean they didn't do the same thing over and over...

2) I disagree with your reasoning for the memory price crash, but that is neither here nor there. See (1).

That's exactly what happened. There's no reasoning about it.

3) Field plate on horseback - do you use a special case rule? Further, the legs are not the primary target against lances, bows, spears, pikes and numerous other weapons. D&D does not use hit location rules, so I'm not sure why this is useful.

Any exposed flesh is a target. And no, if I want detail I just say a knight carries around a few pounds of backplates for their legs.

4) "Historically sound" is a loaded term, and not at all sound itself. Especially since you ignored greek breastplates and hide armor. I'm going for generic fantasy, not England c1100. If you are, come clean and we'll understand where you are coming from.

I believe handforged point needs reiterating.

The state of armor and weaponry was constantly evolving. Those armors that are truly inferior either fall out of favor (splint mail) or are forced out (bronze armors).

Some armors, though inferior, stuck around because they were cheap enough to make to be worth it (cloth, studded leather, banded mail).

It's one thing to toss in a throwback culture, with outdated weapons and armors. They can believe in their beauty all they want - look where it got the Etruscans.

But you can't balance a world across millenia and claim 'realism' in the same sentence (at least, not honestly).
 

seasong: I like the new table with no specific descriptions of armor materials. This way the DM can determine exactly where a piece of armor fits into the system. If a player comes in with the picture of, say Alhandra, from the PHB, they might request that it be considered Light rigid, because of the various plates. I would probably rule that it is Medium Flexible, because the primary body protection is scales, the shoulder pauldrons do not restrict movement very much at all(lower check penalty), and the lack of overlapping plates anywhere else means that blows will be absorbed less by the armor(lower DR), but that it would protect from a similar number of blows(same AC).

Classes with armor dependent abilities like the Ranger and the Paladin, could require that the armor leave a certain percentage of their dex score intact.

For DM's to have a guide, we could break up all of the listed armors from the PHB, and possibly OA, FRCS, other large publications, as well as documenting some well-known illustrations.

Xeriar: My point was not to say that creating a comprehensive list would be fruitless, but rather trying to say that not all armors have to be balanced. If the PCs are out of their home territory, they may have to pay more for a less efficient armor, because the local population doesn't know how to make fully articulated steel plate(at whatever weight or price).

Armor for a certain culture would also be based on what weapons they were used to defending against. Mail doesn't work against arrows, or stilleto daggers(which were designed to penetrate mail). A fighter in full plate who plans only to participate in the joust, will have minimal protection on his legs and back becuase no points can be scored by placing blows in either area, and it is difficult to unhorse a rider by hitting their leg. A fighter in full plate who plans on going toe to toe with another fighter in full plate, will definitely have his back protected as well as the back of his legs. A wrap shot with a sword or mace can break bones and seriously destroy some muscle structure. Neither of these fighters would wear much armor on their shield arms because the wood and metal shields are heavy enough, and if they couldn't hold their shield up, they were probably going to die anyway.

~hf
 

A few notes on this:
Code:
[color=skyblue]
[u]Armor           Type    AC  DR   CHK    DEX  Wiz    Wt  GP[/u]
Minimal Armor   Flex    +1  0/-  +0     max  0%     10  1
Light Flexible  Flex    +1  1/-  -1     max  10%    20  5
Medium Flexible Flex    +2  1/-  -1     1/2  10%    30  15
Light Rigid     Rigid   +2  2/-  -2     1/2  20%    30  25
Heavy Flexible  Flex    +3  2/-  -2     1/4  20%    40  40
Medium Rigid    Rigid   +3  3/-  -3     1/4  30%    40  60
Heavy Rigid     Rigid   +4  3/-  -4     1/8  40%    50  80
Maximum Armor   Rigid   +4  4/-  -4     1/8  40%    65  200[/color]
I divorced max Dex bonus from the armor check penalty - weight isn't as big an issue as design of the armor is, as Xeriar pointed out. I also changed it to a multiplier (D&D has these already - 1.5 times your STR bonus, for example). Light and flexible armor has no impact on your Dex modifier, no matter how high your Dex is; medium armor is somewhat more restrictive, and halves your Dex modifier; heavy armor is even more so, and quarters your Dex modifier. Rigid armor also halves your Dex modifier, and this is applied on top of the above (so heavy rigid armor is 1/8th). Round your Dex modifier UP. A 14 Dex in heavy rigid armor gives you a +1, and a 16 Dex in Medium Flexible gives you a +2.

Arcane failure is equal to 10% per point of armor check penalty. That's more in line with the original numbers, and still allows wizards to wear heavy winter clothing without suffering difficulties.

I will rewrite the mundane modifications possible later today. I think I'll be going with this chart :D.
 

Yet Another Armor Revision, Good Heavens (YAARGH), v2

Armor Types

Armor is broken into Flexible and Rigid.

Flexible armor can typically be worn by anyone, and is roughly equivalent to very heavy clothing (sometimes very heavy). Mail is the ultimate expression (and heaviest) of pre-modern flexible armor, but is generally too heavy for consideration by most spellcasters, rogues and bards. Flexible armor replaces the Light Armor Proficiency feat (although the armor sometimes crosses into what used to be Medium Armor).

Rigid armor provides maximized protection at the expense of clothing-like flexibility. A lot of agility is given up in return for hard defense and complete coverage, from protected joints to reinforcing structure. Rigid armor replaces the Medium and Heavy Armor Proficiency feats.

Barbarians, bards, rogues and others limited to "light" armor for certain special abilities are now limited to "flexible" armor.

Armor is also broken into sub-classifications of light, medium and heavy. This has no impact on proficiency, however, it is simply a measure of the armor design - light armor is designed for minimum interference with movement (within the limitations of its type, flexible or rigid), at the expense of actual protection; heavy armor is designed for maximum weight an protection within the limitations of its type, and consequently sacrifices some mobility.

Armor Check, Spell Failure, Dex Modifier and Movement

The following is an optional set of rules. The armor check, max Dex and spell failure are precalculated in the basic armors section if you prefer not to mess with this stuff.

Armor Check Penalty: Your base check penalty is +0 for flexible armor and -1 for rigid armor.

If the armor is 5 lbs or less, reduce the check penalty by 1 (so 3 lbs of rigid armor would have a check penalty of +0). If the armor is 6-10 lbs, leave the check penalty as is. For each doubling thereafter, increase the check penalty by 1 (so 40 lbs of rigid armor would have a check penalty of -3).

A positive check penalty is treated as +0.

Arcane Spell Failure: The arcane spell failure percentage is equal to 10% per check penalty. So a check penalty of -3 results in a spell failure 30%.

DEX Modifier: This is a measure of how much the armor impacts the character's ability to dodge. Use the following chart to determine how much the DEX bonus to AC is impacted:
Code:
[color=skyblue][u]General Class   Flexible        Rigid[/u]
Light           no effect       no effect 
Medium          no effect       bonus x1/2
Heavy           bonus x1/2      bonus x1/4[/color]
Round fractions of a bonus DOWN. Thus for a 16 DEX while wearing Heavy Flexible armor (x1/2), the normal +3 Dex bonus to AC changes to a +1 Dex bonus.

Movement: Armor which provides a DEX Modifier of 1/2 or worse also limits your ability to move quickly. At 1/2 DEX, the character's movement is reduced to 2/3 normal (30 ft becomes 20 ft). At 1/4, the character loses the ability to run (although double moves are still possible).

Strength, Size and Armor Check Penalties: The system doesn't normally account for the impact strength or size has on how limiting armor is. If you would prefer that it did, use the following rules of thumb:

Size
Fine: treat weight as x16 for check penalties
Diminutive: treat weight as x8 for check penalties
Tiny: treat weight as x4 for check penalties
Small: treat weight as x2 for check penalties
Large: treat weight as x1/2 for check penalties
Huge: treat weight as x1/4 for check penalties
Gargantuan: treat weight as x1/8 for check penalties
Collossal: treat weight as x1/16 for check penalties

Strength
1: treat weight as x8 for check penalties
2: treat weight as x4 for check penalties
3-5: treat weight as x2 for check penalties
6-14: x1
15-19: x1/2
20-24: x1/4
25-29: x1/8
per +5: x1/2 more

Example: A gargantuan giant with STR 30 would multiply the armor weight by 1/128 when calculating armor check penalty. So if the armor weighed 2,560 lbs and was flexible, it would count as 20 lbs and have a -1 check.

The above does not have any impact on the general class of the armor (light, medium, heavy).

Basic Armors
Code:
[color=skyblue]
[u]Armor           Type    AC  DR   CHK    DEX  Wiz    Wt  GP[/u]
Minimal Armor   Flex    +1  0/-  +0     same 0%     10  1
Light Flexible  Flex    +1  1/-  -1     same 10%    20  5
Medium Flexible Flex    +2  1/-  -1     same 10%    30  15
Light Rigid     Rigid   +2  2/-  -2     same 20%    30  25
Heavy Flexible  Flex    +3  2/-  -2     1/2  20%    40  40
Medium Rigid    Rigid   +3  3/-  -3     1/3  30%    40  60
Heavy Rigid     Rigid   +4  3/-  -4     1/4  40%    50  80
Maximum Armor   Rigid   +4  4/-  -4     1/4  40%    65  200[/color]
Note on pricing: The pricing above assumes a reasonably skilled crafter who works on the armor for the amount of time indicated in the core rulebooks (using the core rulebook prices); and an amount of raw materials as indicated by the armor's weight (rather than the "half sale value" equation). This is the minimum sale price that would still be profitable to the artisan in a sensible economy, rather than the actual price an adventurer might expect to pay. King's Taxes on sales, merchant markup, guild-controlled profit rates (and quality!), import costs for distant armorers, can all add up to higher prices. Maximum Armor, in particular, can be driven to sky high prices by the competitive desires of the nobility, as well as the travel costs to make sure it is appropriately fitted to the noble for whom it is made.

However, this may all be more complicated than one might prefer. As an alternative, here are prices which are game-balanced in accordance with the core rulebooks, rather than economically derived:

Minimal Armor: 5 gp
Light Flexible: 10 gp
Medium Flexible: 15 gp
Light Rigid: 40 gp
Heavy Flexible: 50 gp
Medium Rigid: 150 gp
Heavy Rigid: 250 gp
Maximum Armor: 600 gp

Mundane Modifications

Partial Rigid: Flexible armors can be enhanced with small plates, studs, interlaced bands of metal (or wood) and so on. In general, this does not improve its ability to absorb impact significantly enough for a system effect, but it does improve the ability of the armor to cause a glancing blow to miss. This adds +1 AC, adds +5 lbs of weight, and costs +5 gp. The armor is still considered flexible.

Spiked: Spikes can be added to any armor. They deal 1d6 points of piercing damage (X2 crit) with a successful grapple attack. The spikes count as a martial weapon. If a character is not proficient with them, the character suffers a -4 penalty on grapple checks when trying to use them. A regular melee attack (or off-hand attack) can be made with the spikes, and they count as a light weapon in this case. Spikes reduce AC by -1, add +10 lbs, and cost +20 gp.

Fitted: Armor can be fitted to a character, to better suit his movements. Fitted armor only counts as fitted for the person it was fitted for, but this can be changed by a competent armorer with one day per base armor check penalty. Fitted armor costs 1 gp per day required to "fit" it, and reduces the final armor check penalty by 1 point. It has no effect on the DEX modifier, but it does impact arcane spell failure.

Masterwork: Masterwork armor is maximized in efficiency and grace of design; the maker has crafted it with utmost attention to each detail of armor design. Treat as fitted (for anyone that can wear the armor), reduce the DEX modifier by one step (so x1/4 becomes x1/2, and x1/2 becomes "no effect"), and triple the final cost.

Size: Each size smaller than Medium quarters weight and cost. Each size larger than Medium quadruples weight and cost. Note that a Large Masterwork armor is a total of x12 cost (the multipliers are applied separately).

Torso Only: Armor which only covers the torso reduces AC by -1, and halves weight and cost. This reduces the armor check penalty by 1, and reduces the DEX modifier by one step (so x1/4 becomes x1/2, and x1/2 becomes "no effect").

Plated: Metal armors can be plated in another metal, usually tin, silver or gold, to make them more attractive and flashy. Tin costs 25 gp; silver costs 100 gp; gold costs 1,000 gp. This cost is affected normally by size, torso only and no helmet modifiers, but is not affected by any other modifications.

Materials

Generic Exceptional Materials: This is a "universal" modifier; individual campaigns may have specific exceptional materials which vary from this formula. By default, however, exceptional materials halve the weight of the armor (and thus reduces the armor check penalty) and multiplies the final price by x5. A Large Masterwork armor made of exceptional materials will cost x60 (the multipliers are applied separately). For example, mithral, masterwork maximum armor would have these stats: (Rigid, AC +4, DR 4/-, 35 lbs, 3,000 GP) (CHK -2, Arcane 20%, DEX x1/2). This can be applied to any armor (silk for cloth armor, basilisk skin for 'studded' soft leather, and so on).

Non-generic Example: Fire Silk: Fire silk is made from the coccoons of a silkwyrm (a Large burrowing insect vaguely resembling a caterpillar with a triceratops skull) found only in the Burning Desert. The silk is difficult to aquire, but highly valued. Aside from being used in the dresses of court, it can also be used as part of the padded cloth worn under virtually all armor types. It can be added, aftermarket, to any armor - it costs 2,000 GP, reduces the armor's weight by 5 lbs, and provides Fire Resistance 10.

Poor Materials: Often due to a lack of better raw materials, lower technology, religious issues, etc., an area might use sub-optimal armor materials, such as iron, bronze, wood, horse leather, etc. This can be represented by reducing DR (for fragile or easily pierced materials), reducing AC (for rough or poorly hewn materials), or increasing weight/armor check penalties (for soft metals and similar).
 
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green slime said:
Uhhh... Why round UP when the rest of the D20 System always assumes you round DOWN? Isn't that just going to irk some people?

Just to be awkward ;)
No, thanks for the reminder :).

That makes it more difficult.... okay, I'll leave it at round down, but I'll drop the Dex stages a level, and redefine the Movement section.
 

DR-only is the system I used for my Light Against the Dark campaign. If you want to check it out, the full rules (it's more d20 than D&D, though) are here.

I, uh, can't find where those armor rules are on your webpage. Could you link to them specifically, please?

- Kemrain the Embarrassed 'e had to Ask
 

Kemrain said:
I, uh, can't find where those armor rules are on your webpage. Could you link to them specifically, please?

- Kemrain the Embarrassed 'e had to Ask
No reason to be embarassed - I just realized that the file is actually in my Europ setting folder. Here's the relevant bits:

Armor (as well as a leathery hide, scales and similar things) provides Damage Resistance. To calculate DR for armor, convert its AC under the standard d20 system into DR. Thus, a chain shirt normally gives +4 AC; in Europ, the chain shirt will provide DR 4/-.

Magical armor adds its bonus to the DR of the armor. Armor DR and natural DR (such as from the Leatherneck feat for the goblin-tainted) stack with each other.

Shields add to AC (as do shield enhancement bonuses).

Size adds +3 to AC per size smaller than Medium; and subtracts the same per size larger.

Hit points start equal to CON x2 (doubled for Large, x4 for Huge, x1/2 for Small, etc.) and do not go up with level (it is a class-less system - you have buy points each level, and can put them towards hit points if you want).
 

Thank you seasong. I appreciate you posting those rules. It sounds very similar to the Grim and Gritty Hit Point rules system, which I'm using in a game I'll be running eventually.

If I wanted to convert the system you're putting forth in this thread to a DR-Only armor system, because classes already get big AC bonuses from class, how would I go about doign that? .5 AC bonus + DR bonus for flexable armors and AC + DR bonus for rigid? I really like this system, and it looks so easy to modify armor types with it, giving each character quite individual armor with little work. I'd love to use it, if we can figure out how to modify the protection granted to fiy my current system.

- Kemrain the Appreciative
 

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