The YAARGH Armor Revision

[seasong]

Doubtful... Most likely, it is charcoal, wood, or coal, used to fire the forge for the 12 months of work, on the plate. Maille was made from wire, and required no further forging, unless rivetted.

An entire day's worth of firewood costs 1 cp. That's enough firewood to heat a small house for a day, and you would likely need about 5-10x that to heat metal for a few hours worth per day (a few hours on average - you would use more wood during the initial months, and considerably less during the polish, fitting and grinding months). That comes out to somewhere between 20 and 40 gold pieces.

The metal used in mail required no further forging, but it required a ton of work prior to being purchased by the smith - where the smith takes on the expense of the plate armor shaping, the person he purchased it from took on the expense of the mail armor drawing of wire. In both cases, the raw material cost should be reasonably similar, if not more expensive for the mail due to markup between friends.

Originally posted by Xeriar
Plate is a different story. Plate required a hella lotta skill, and could take months to craft a full suit rather than days (it takes months of work to make chain, but it can be assembly lined, and nearly any idiot can be taught to make it). I don't have my economic links handy, but in England, chain cost a couple score shillings. Plate cost several thousand pounds. This sometimes included multiple pieces ie to get both full (riding) and field (walking) plate, and maybe a spare helmet.

This is true. I've already said that I don't agree with the skill requirements in the PHB, but I don't have good crafting rules to replace them yet.

Originally posted by handforged
I was under the impression that apprentices were only given room and board, which could have been sleeping on the ground next to the bellows.

I think you may be correct. That would certainly help. And a well known (INT 16) dwarven armorer with skill focus, an expert-0 apprentice, and masterwork tools could get up to around +15. At 1st level. Ick.

Originally posted by Kemrain
I really like this system, and I think I could use it in the game I'm planning, but I have a problem with it in that, in my game, armor only provides DR. No AC bonus from armor at all, in fact, Light penalizes you 1 point, Medium 2, and Heavy 4. Each armor gives it's regular AC bonus as DR. You have a decent class bonus to AC, depending on your level, so it's not unbalanced.

DR-only is the system I used for my Light Against the Dark campaign. If you want to check it out, the full rules (it's more d20 than D&D, though) are here.

Originally posted by green slime
Overall, I feel the weights are wrong. They all seem on the heavy side. You wouldn’t see knights in plate if it weighed as much as 100 lbs. You may be thinking of the 16th century tournament armours, but no armour worn on the battlefield weighed 100 lbs. Given that throughout history, the average grunt has carried around 40lbs of equipment with him. Any more and he tires too quickly on the battlefield.

Doh! The weight is wrong. The plate armor should be 65-75 lbs. The armor itself (the plate and bits of mail) should be about 60-65 lbs. The cloth padding and bits + pieces should add another 5-10 lbs. I just didn't spot the error. So... mea culpa, mea culpa - I should have double checked the first time someone cried at the 100 lb weight.

Of course, that's still not a far cry from 100, and you will likely still protest . But the fact is, the average grunt (who did not carry more than 40 lbs with him) did not wear plate - he may have worn torso only segmented plate, at most, but that's about it. The plate armor here is intended to help model the armor worn by knights intending to fight on horseback, and who (even on foot) could reasonably be expected to have STR 14-18, and be able to shoulder the burden.

Originally posted by green slime
The prices you have suggested seem OK, given a silver standard, rater than a gold one. I also liked the separate chart for “recommended retail price”.

Great!

Originally posted by green slime
Compared to the PHB, your arcane spell failures are lower. Any particular reason?

My players still won't wear it . The original reason was just ease of calculation, but really, they seem to still balance reasonably well at those levels.

I'll come back to your analysis of armors on the battlefield - it looks good, though.

Originally posted by Xeriar
I don't know where Seasong came up with 100 pounds, really. I don't know why he puts the max dex bonus at +0 either. There is a difference between an agile person in plate and an average person in plate, for sure.

See above. I erred. And at under 80 lbs, the max Dex bonus is +1.

Originally posted by Xeriar
Jousting armor IIRC is 80-90 pounds, and a knight could not get up in it unassisted.

Actually, I this this is a myth. I've worn weights (wrists, undearm, waist, and knees) at around 100 lbs, and was able to get up in a few seconds unassisted. I am not an immensely strong person, and the weights were not what one would call "balanced for human movement".

Originally posted by Xeriar
I'm not sure about cloth/padded armor. It's 20 layers of silk or linen and is generally there to allow an arrow to be removed, or act as a gambesan for the armor over it.

It doesn't help that there are different kinds of padded armor. The romans had glued layers of thick cloth that they wore under their metal armors, to absorb impact and sweat; even by itself, it was reasonably useful against a club. The lightly padded quilts that were worn under other armors at later dates bore little resemblance to the Roman version, however, and in theory you could make yourself look like a walking pillow if you wanted. I just went with a good average that was roughly equivalent in weight to Russian winter wear, on the theory that that would be sufficient to provide some protection.

Originally posted by Xeriar
Soft leather does not hold up well in combat and you can at least pound nails through it if you have to (ie, make it studded). Or if you're gonna go with soft leather, make it lamellar so you can replace damaged parts.

This is assuming armor which is a half step below boiled plate leather (lamellar is the fat-hardened and shaped leather, yes?); which is padded with cloth armor beneath; and which is thick enough to be useful. It is not a catsuit, fanboy artists aside.

Originally posted by Xeriar
Hardened leather is certainly not what I would call semi-rigid - it's pretty damn stiff. It's not studded, rather, you attach metal plates to it and call it brigandine. The key here is not flexibility but that it's still quiet.

Studded leather plate can be called brigandine if it makes you feel better . And it is not as rigid as some of the other semi-rigid armors.

 

[Xeriar]

An entire day's worth of firewood costs 1 cp. That's enough firewood to heat a small house for a day, and you would likely need about 5-10x that to heat metal for a few hours worth per day (a few hours on average - you would use more wood during the initial months, and considerably less during the polish, fitting and grinding months).

Wood is gathered into pits and set in a controlled fire to make cake. IIRC, 4 tons of wood made about a ton of cake after this process. Mostly because it was all dry. I don't recall how much iron a ton of cake could smelt and forge into steel - a few hundred pounds, IIRC, if that.

The metal used in mail required no further forging, but it required a ton of work prior to being purchased by the smith - where the smith takes on the expense of the plate armor shaping, the person he purchased it from took on the expense of the mail armor drawing of wire. In both cases, the raw material cost should be reasonably similar, if not more expensive for the mail due to markup between friends.

Mail wire is made in mass quantities, reducing the room for markup.

Actually, I this this is a myth. I've worn weights (wrists, undearm, waist, and knees) at around 100 lbs, and was able to get up in a few seconds unassisted. I am not an immensely strong person, and the weights were not what one would call "balanced for human movement".

It's not the weight at all. Simply, the armor was crafted so that the knight could not stand up.

Some armors are crafted so that the poor individual simply cannot sit down. This is usually like, an armorer's first try nowadays, but still.

This is assuming armor which is a half step below boiled plate leather (lamellar is the fat-hardened and shaped leather, yes?);

Lamellar is a set of leather (or plastic plates that are strung together vertically and horizontally, creating a kind of scaled effect. If a string or plate gets damaged, replace it - just like mail links.

You could probably make lamellar out of nearly anything, actually.

Studded leather plate can be called brigandine if it makes you feel better . And it is not as rigid as some of the other semi-rigid armors.

I never use your rules anyway, Seasong

 

[seasong]

Wood is gathered into pits and set in a controlled fire to make cake. IIRC, 4 tons of wood made about a ton of cake after this process. Mostly because it was all dry. I don't recall how much iron a ton of cake could smelt and forge into steel - a few hundred pounds, IIRC, if that.

But that's the smelting process, NOT the heat + pound process. Smelting applies to both armors. I'm really not getting whatever it is you're trying to say .

Mail wire is made in mass quantities, reducing the room for markup.

My comment on expense is before markup. It is made in mass quantities. It is also not an inexpensive process.

Anyway, the real issue I think you have is with the relative skill involved. D&D simply doesn't differentiate the skill required well enough, and the limited pool of talent and training was one of the primary causes of high prices. That holds true of plate armor even today.

Work with me on better crafting rules, and I gaurantee the prices will change .

It's not the weight at all. Simply, the armor was crafted so that the knight could not stand up.

Ah. Well, in that case, why did you bring it up in regards to the weight of medieval armor? Or was this just a conversational red herring, something that fell into the syntactic mix as you were typing? If so, I apologize for focusing on it .

I never use your rules anyway, Seasong

Fair enough. Your comments are still valuable here.

 

[Xeriar]

But that's the smelting process, NOT the heat + pound process. Smelting applies to both armors. I'm really not getting whatever it is you're trying to say .

Err, I was just explaining what was used in the forging process. It's not 'wood' anymore.

My comment on expense is before markup. It is made in mass quantities. It is also not an inexpensive process.

Making RAM is an expensive process. But during the latter half of the 90's, RAM prices fell through the floor, going from $40 a megabyte being a good deal to the advent of the affordable computers you see today.

Once enough people are working on something, their time is worth less. On another forum I did encounter mention of an Italian shop which made 40 full suits of chain a month from raw materials. One pair would do nothing but draw the wire, another guy would just coil, others would just make rings, and others would just knit.

Anyway, the real issue I think you have is with the relative skill involved. D&D simply doesn't differentiate the skill required well enough, and the limited pool of talent and training was one of the primary causes of high prices. That holds true of plate armor even today.

I have issues with the relative skill involved in a lot of things in d20

Work with me on better crafting rules, and I gaurantee the prices will change .

Maybe. I'm working on something rather different, actually.

Ah. Well, in that case, why did you bring it up in regards to the weight of medieval armor? Or was this just a conversational red herring, something that fell into the syntactic mix as you were typing? If so, I apologize for focusing on it .

Lots of things fall into syntactic mix as I type. Anyway,I still think you underestimate Plate's mobility. Full Plate may be limited to +1, but Feild Plate was designed with lighter leg armor in mind, and often was just another set of greaves that the knight carried with him should he have to go on foot.

 

[seasong]

Making RAM is an expensive process. But during the latter half of the 90's, RAM prices fell through the floor, going from $40 a megabyte being a good deal to the advent of the affordable computers you see today.

Thanks to (a) automation and (b) miniaturization, neither of which applies?

Lots of things fall into syntactic mix as I type. Anyway,I still think you underestimate Plate's mobility. Full Plate may be limited to +1, but Feild Plate was designed with lighter leg armor in mind, and often was just another set of greaves that the knight carried with him should he have to go on foot.

I had a detail cutoff point - D&D has a low granularity, making slight differences irrelevant. For example, what is the difference between mail with and without sleeves in D&D? A few pounds, certainly, but almost nothing else. So why wouldn't you buy the cheaper, lighter armor that provides the same protection?

In real life, you wouldn't buy it because it doesn't provide quite as much protection, and you fear for your arms. But short of realistic damage rules and a more granular "chance to hit", you can't represent that very well in D&D.

For field plate, I would recommend going with the torso only option, and hand-waving the visual effect as lighter leg armor. It wouldn't protect quite as well, and would be comparatively light weight.

 

[handforged]

Lamellar is a set of leather (or plastic plates that are strung together vertically and horizontally, creating a kind of scaled effect. If a string or plate gets damaged, replace it - just like mail links.

You could probably make lamellar out of nearly anything, actually.

Anything?

~hf

 

[seasong]

Some edits I'm thinking about, based on things that y'all have pointed out or gotten me thinking about.

I am displeased with the fact that the armor weights don't even come close to what little I know of reality, and the costs seem designed to bedevil me with questions.

Based on comments here, and my own continued reading, I'm still not satisfied with the armor weights. The problem is that there has been a lot of variety in armor weights in real world history, but two armors of different costs and weights that both round off to +1 AC don't represent the advantage of taking the heavier armor. In short, there are optimal choices in the game which are not always optimal choices in real life, by weight.

I don't think there is a way to fix that without changing the rules more than I care to (hit locations, wear n tear rules, etc.).

Armor Types

Armor is broken into Flexible, Semi-rigid and Rigid.

I think I'm going to drop the Semi-rigid grouping, and make everything Flexible or Rigid. Rigid armors will provide a -1 base to the armor check penalty, just like Semi-rigid did before. This will reduce some of the difficulties with plate armor, and will clean up armor proficiencies a bit.

The spell failure percentage is equal to 5% per check penalty. So a check penalty of -3 results in a spell failure 15%.

This will be bumped up a bit. I'm still thinking about how much.

 

[Xeriar]

Thanks to (a) automation and (b) miniaturization, neither of which applies?

No, the price collapse came because of overproduction. The Dramurai were only making a little bit for so long... Then they drastically overestimated the market in 1997, producing too much.

This had an interesting economic effect because once this happened, none of them could afford to raise prices again, because they'd be undercut by all of their competitors by default.

And mail construction was automated.

For field plate, I would recommend going with the torso only option, and hand-waving the visual effect as lighter leg armor. It wouldn't protect quite as well, and would be comparatively light weight.

Actually I just use field plate numbers because Armor Check penalty doesn't mean anything while mounted and the better leg armor is actually there because legs are more of a target while mounted.

For armor, I'm just going to go with historically sound types

Padded/cloth/whatever
Lamellar (in many glorious forms... pop tabs ahoy
Hardened Leather
Brigandine
Mail
Plate

Studded Leather may exist as an emergency armor that could be made in a hurry. Banded and Splint mail may exist as odd, silly armoring experiments, though banded might be worth something given magical repairing available.

 

[seasong]

1) Mail was not automated. It was industrialized, but not automated. There is an immense economic impact which you are ignoring here.

2) I disagree with your reasoning for the memory price crash, but that is neither here nor there. See (1).

3) Field plate on horseback - do you use a special case rule? Further, the legs are not the primary target against lances, bows, spears, pikes and numerous other weapons. D&D does not use hit location rules, so I'm not sure why this is useful.

4) "Historically sound" is a loaded term, and not at all sound itself. Especially since you ignored greek breastplates and hide armor. I'm going for generic fantasy, not England c1100. If you are, come clean and we'll understand where you are coming from.

 

[handforged]

Re: Re: The YAARGH Armor Revision

The problem is that there has been a lot of variety in armor weights in real world history, but two armors of different costs and weights that both round off to +1 AC don't represent the advantage of taking the heavier armor. In short, there are optimal choices in the game which are not always optimal choices in real life, by weight.

I think that this summarizes the key to the argument pretty well. I do not think that there is a perfect way to weigh all armors accurately and still have them be balanced through the rules.

This brings up an interesting point, however. Real world armors were not balanced. Some were just crappy, but were the only thing that a particular person could afford, or what his leige could afford to equip him with. But we are talking about rich adventurers, basically mercenaries, who can decide exactly what they want to wear and look for every little ounce of efficiency since they put their lives on the line everyday.

The only group in medieval europe who fit this bill in any approximation were the Landskenecht mercenaries in 15th -17th century Germany. They collected pieces of armor and clothing off of fallen enemies (and comrades) to find the perfect balance of wonderfulness for their particular fighting style.

The other group who could afford this level of luxury were nobility that bought sets of armor to compete in tournaments. Unfortunately since most of this armor could be afforded only by the richest of the rich, it would be impractical to allow just any adventurer to access a suit of it without a certain level of fame or wealth.

So since real world armors are not balanced between their protection from blows(AC), their ability to absorb blows(DR), their weight, and their flexibility, it will be an endless argument to see which armor goes where, and how to "balance" it compared to the other armors. Because some armors were bad, they were lost or fell to the wayside when new technology came along. D&D tries to squeeze 1500 years and an entire globe plus some make believe armor technology into one system.

Please do not take this the wrong way seasong, I mean this as an argument for your amazing ability to try and produce some sort of realism in yoru campaign. I rather would discourage others from bringing up specific weights or real world production methods as an end-all-be-all rule for D&D armor. Fantasy has to accept that some things are not what they seem. Seasong has done a masterful job at creating a set of rules, and has asked for ways of balancing them within the rules of D&D as well as a way to make his campaign more real seeming. Continuity is the most important thing here.

If metal armor costs more because of the ore and the time it takes to create any shape out of it, well that makes sense.

~hf