The YAARGH Armor Revision

[seasong]

Thank you seasong. I appreciate you posting those rules. It sounds very similar to the Grim and Gritty Hit Point rules system, which I'm using in a game I'll be running eventually.

It's based on Kenneth Hood's system, so that similarity is accurate . That's mentioned in the Europ rules.

If I wanted to convert the system you're putting forth in this thread to a DR-Only armor system, because classes already get big AC bonuses from class, how would I go about doign that? .5 AC bonus + DR bonus for flexable armors and AC + DR bonus for rigid?

Naw, just add AC and DR together as DR for all armors on the table. That will give you a DR progression of 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8.

I really like this system, and it looks so easy to modify armor types with it, giving each character quite individual armor with little work. I'd love to use it, if we can figure out how to modify the protection granted to fiy my current system.

See above. If you don't mind the slightly higher DRs, a simple progression is best.

 

[Kemrain]

Thanks a bunch seasong. I'll take a look at your Europ rules soon. I appreciate you taking time to answer my query personally, and so quickly, to boot.

Just a quick clarafication...

Heavy Flexable (Chain)
+3 AC, 2/- DR, -2 CP 1/2 Dex 40 lbs
Hevy Flexable Torso (Chain shirt)
+2 AC, 2/- DR, -1 CP, Dex, 20 lbs
Heavy Flex Partly Rigid (Studded Chain?)
+4 AC, 2/- DR, -2 CP, 1/2 Dex, 45 lbs
Heavy Flex Partly Rigid Torso (Studded Chain Shirt)
+3 AC, 2/- DR, -1 CP, Dex, 22.5 lbs
Medium Rigid Torso Masterwork (Masterwork Breastplate?)
+2 AC, 3/- DR, -1 CP, Dex, 30 lbs
Heavy Flex Part Rigid, Masterwork Torso (Masterwork Studded Chain Shirt)
+3 AC, 2/- DR, 0 CP, Dex, 22.5 lbs

Is this all acurate?
How come you took out the no helmet rules? The MAsterwork = Less weight rules?

I wanna understand this better before I go and try to explain it to my players.

Thanks again.

- Kemrain the Enthused

 

[seasong]

Thanks a bunch seasong. I'll take a look at your Europ rules soon. I appreciate you taking time to answer my query personally, and so quickly, to boot.

No problem. It's related to adapting my idea to another one, and I'm all for that .

Just a quick clarafication...

Hm. I would require full body (no "torso only") in order to get any benefit from "partly rigid". Otherwise, it opens up some abuse. Otherwise, that all looks good.

How come you took out the no helmet rules? The MAsterwork = Less weight rules?

With more generic rules, I'd rather allow the GM to simply assign a category without mucking about with piecemeal armor rules. The torso only remains because it fulfills a good niche, but you could also just call that "partial coverage" and apply it to "left side only" like some of the PH pictures .

 

[mythusmage]

I [i]Like[/i] Semi-Rigid Armor:)

Seasong, please reinstate it.

Semi-rigid armor has characteristics not held by rigid or flexible. For one, it has places where it 'flexes' where rigid armor does not. It also has weak points where rigid does not.

To put it another way; bone, banded, splint etc. armor is not leather or plate and should not be treated as such. As far as I can see it deserves an entry of it's own.

And while I'm posting here: Cut down the entries to the following: Flexible, semi-rigid, and rigid. Then add in modifiers. Such as material and weight/thickness. So that a suit of banded cuirbolli (semi-rigid/light armor) would provide less protection (in terms of AC and DR) than a suit of banded iron (semi-rigid/heavy armor). This does complicate the base, but it simplifies armor design.

BTW, I can see a culture making spiked cloth armor, under the right conditions. Lack of other resources for example.

Another thing. wood is used to make charcoal. Coal is used to make coke (misspelled as 'cake' in an earlier post). Coke was unknown in the Medieval period, being an invention of the 19th century. It is the combination of the blast furnace and coke that makes the mass production of high grade steel and cast iron possible. With a bellows fed furnace and charcoal the best you're going to get is a form of mild steel. The Southern Indian kingdoms of the early Christian era were able to harness strong seasonal winds by use of an ingenious design to produce higher quality steels than otherwise possible.

Last, but certainly not least. Seasong, could you post your latest set of armor rules as an attachment? If there's a problem there, you can send me the file. I'll 'translate it into RTF, zip it up, and post it in this thread.

 

[mythusmage]

Guess What I Thought of Just as I Hit "Send Reply"?

My suggestions above re armor are meant as core design ideas. That is, a GM would take the guidelines and use them to design armor for the nations, societies, and cultures of his setting. So Country A may produce a light iron plate armor, while Country B produces a heavy iron plate armor. Resulting in two plate armors differing somewhere between 2-4 points in AC and 1 or 2 points in DR in protection. Along with differences in max Dex and armor check penalties etc.

Thought I'd clarify.

 

[seasong]

Re: I [i]Like[/i] Semi-Rigid Armor:)

Seasong, please reinstate it.

Semi-rigid armor has characteristics not held by rigid or flexible. For one, it has places where it 'flexes' where rigid armor does not. It also has weak points where rigid does not.

Agreed. But D&D doesn't really offer any way to differentiate that. In game terms, armor rounds off to one extra armor check point and a step up on the Dex modifier, or not. The "partial rigid" modification is meant as the half step between the two, getting some of the deflective potential of rigid armor without entirely sacrificing the flexibility of flexible armor.

And while I'm posting here: Cut down the entries to the following: Flexible, semi-rigid, and rigid. Then add in modifiers. Such as material and weight/thickness.

You been reading my GURPS pages?

I actually had some rules written up for halving or doubling thickness to modify AC/DR up or down. But ultimately, they just didn't work well with only eight levels of differentiation possible. It simply ends up being min/maxed to the 6-8 combinations that offer each level of protection for the least cost/weight. And if those are the only armors that will be used (unless you introduce significantly more complex rules to offer other ads/disads to each), you might as well just list those.

Last, but certainly not least. Seasong, could you post your latest set of armor rules as an attachment? If there's a problem there, you can send me the file. I'll 'translate it into RTF, zip it up, and post it in this thread.

You mean the ones I just posted, only in RTF?

My suggestions above re armor are meant as core design ideas. That is, a GM would take the guidelines and use them to design armor for the nations, societies, and cultures of his setting. So Country A may produce a light iron plate armor, while Country B produces a heavy iron plate armor. Resulting in two plate armors differing somewhere between 2-4 points in AC and 1 or 2 points in DR in protection. Along with differences in max Dex and armor check penalties etc.

Country A, light rigid; Country B, heavy rigid. Describe to suit. If Country B is dwarven, maybe offer their armor as an Exceptional Material.

 

[seasong]

In case anyone wants it, the current rules (as written above) in Word, RTF and PDF format are attached in a single zip file below.

 

[mythusmage]

Got the files, thanks.

To clarify. The core 'description' for each armor type would list only max Dex, armor check, and spell failure. The materials (type and weight) would determine AC and DR. Plus any changes to max Dex, armor check, and spell failure.

As it stands, your system is a bit too generic to be useable in a game. What I'd like to see is a sytem a GM can use to design different armors for his setting.

You're also concentrating a bit too much on the game part when you really should be focusing on the world part. Your point about people mini-maxing their armor is a valid one, but only for people who metagame. Here are a few things to keep in mind about a world.

1. Not everything is going to be available everywhere.

2. People tend to use what they know, or what their culture produces (the "Not made here." excuse).

3. The price of repairing or replacing the superior item could be more than the cost of repairing or replacing the inferior one.

4. Never forget the appeal of appearance. ("I don't care if it's 50 pounds heavier, I look like a b** **s in this.")

Remember, not everybody makes rational decisions.

 

[Coredump]

Another issue with armour in period, is the difference of what you were facing. bludgeoning, spears, arrows, cannnon, etc. What you may call 'not as good' may have been a better choice for what was being fought.

Also, some of what we think of as 'lousy' is colored by our modern eyes. There are lots of accounts praising 'padded' armor and its ability to fend off attacks. yet is is not much better than a tunic in D&D.

.

 

[seasong]

To clarify. The core 'description' for each armor type would list only max Dex, armor check, and spell failure. The materials (type and weight) would determine AC and DR. Plus any changes to max Dex, armor check, and spell failure.

Ah, easy to fix, then . Have more material types in the Exceptional Materials section. Perhaps wood weighs half as much (and reduces armor check by 1), but also reduces AC and DR both by 1. Silver would weigh about the same as the rigid armors or the heavy flexible armor, and have a DR of 2 less... and cost an extra 5 gp per pound of armor weight (modified downward somewhat for the 5-10 lbs of padding underneath).

I may see what I can do later today - this morning, I have an IronDM entry to finish and a Game of Death round to work on .

As it stands, your system is a bit too generic to be useable in a game. What I'd like to see is a sytem a GM can use to design different armors for his setting.

Whereas this is a system a GM can use to classify different armors for his setting. A real design tool that did everything I wanted would (a) be a great deal more work to put together than this table and (b) stop being D&D altogether.

Which isn't to say I'm not going to eventually do it, but it is out of the scope of this project.

You're also concentrating a bit too much on the game part when you really should be focusing on the world part.

Er? What world part?

Your point about people mini-maxing their armor is a valid one, but only for people who metagame.

D&D is the physics for the characters. If two armors exist, one of which weighs 10 lbs/costs 30 gp and one of which weighs 40 lbs/costs 60 gp, but both are just as effective in every combat the character fights in, metagame or not, he's going to shift to the other one. Expand that over generations, and a few armors will crop up as the only good ones. As for looking cool, that is certainly a consideration for ceremonial armor, but I don't think any GM has issues saying, "ceremonial armor doubles weight, quadruples cost, and lowers AC by -1" or something similar.

Remember, not everybody makes rational decisions.

All right, you've persuaded me. I will add a variable modifier for "Poor Materials" later, which a GM can use to build sub-optimal armor for his players to drool over.