The YAARGH Armor Revision

[seasong]

Int 14+ = >1 Standard Deviation.
Try 16%

On 3d6, anyway.

This is not counting benefits due to age or levels.

Thanks. I knew that, and then did something stupid: divided by 6 since there were six ability scores

Anyway, my point still holds - there are plenty, plenty, plenty of INT 14+ folks to be armorers .

 

[willpax]

I think this is actually a good set of rules. I may adapt them slightly for a metal-poor campaign world (adjusting prices accordingly).

One major difference is that I use a VP/WP system, and already have armor apply its DR to wound point loss only. That makes armor DR not quite as valuable unless you are getting critted (when it is suddenly a lifesaver, as my players are slowly learning).

Do you combine the lower ACs with some kind of defense bonus? Or has that proven to not be a problem?

 

[seasong]

I think this is actually a good set of rules. I may adapt them slightly for a metal-poor campaign world (adjusting prices accordingly).

Thanks . I hope it works for you!

One major difference is that I use a VP/WP system, and already have armor apply its DR to wound point loss only. That makes armor DR not quite as valuable unless you are getting critted (when it is suddenly a lifesaver, as my players are slowly learning).

I like that.

Do you combine the lower ACs with some kind of defense bonus? Or has that proven to not be a problem?

It hasn't proven to be a problem so far - lower ACs do mean your opponent hits more often, but it also means you hit more often... and each blow does very slightly less damage. So you get less of a "whiff whiff whiff and then I died" combat and more of a "ow whiff whiff ow and then I died" combat.

 

[Steverooo]

Under the standard rules, 50 pounds of plate costs 750 GP in raw materials, but 40 pounds of chainmail only costs 75 GP in raw materials. Those last 10 pounds of metal must be some rare adamantine alloy, eh?

Doubtful... Most likely, it is charcoal, wood, or coal, used to fire the forge for the 12 months of work, on the plate. Maille was made from wire, and required no further forging, unless rivetted.

 

[Xeriar]

Doubtful... Most likely, it is charcoal, wood, or coal, used to fire the forge for the 12 months of work, on the plate. Maille was made from wire, and required no further forging, unless rivetted.

Four in one generally has to be rivetted to be of use. Chain is neat since you can just repair it while on the march and butted...

Regardless, in medieval times chain wire was made by drawing it through progressively smaller holes, then coiling, clipping, knitting and rivetting it. Chain is cheaper because it was made in such insanely large quantities. Most armorers who worked on metal armor worked on chain.

Plate is a different story. Plate required a hella lotta skill, and could take months to craft a full suit rather than days (it takes months of work to make chain, but it can be assembly lined, and nearly any idiot can be taught to make it). I don't have my economic links handy, but in England, chain cost a couple score shillings. Plate cost several thousand pounds. This sometimes included multiple pieces ie to get both full (riding) and field (walking) plate, and maybe a spare helmet.

Plate was also proofed with the strongest weapon available at the time (bow, crossbow, pistol) proving that it could completely stop the projectile. Of course the trick here was probably testing it at a 30 degree angle...

 

[handforged]

Good point. I forgot about aid another - although that actually raises the cost, because you are paying for a master & apprentice for however many weeks it takes (which will not be significantly less).

I was under the impression that apprentices were only given room and board, which could have been sleeping on the ground next to the bellows.

My intention was to point out that a first level human Expert with a first level commoner assistant would be able to make masterwork tools and other items. The assistant would have a 15% chance at failing the DC10 check (4 ranks, +2 skill focus), which cannot be made by taking 10.

Skill Bonus: 4
Skill Focus: 2(3)
Int Bonus: 2
Aid Bonus: 2
Total Bonus:10(11)

A dwarf would definitely be able to produce masterwork tools at first level even without an assistant (replace aid bonus with racial bonus). Having multiple assistants would not be a problem either especially if one was a journeyman rather than apprentice(Exp1 or Com2 once the master is higher level). I don't think that raising the cost for getting the armor a few weeks early would be a bad idea. Rush delivery costs and all.

~hf

 

[Kemrain]

I really like this system, and I think I could use it in the game I'm planning, but I have a problem with it in that, in my game, armor only provides DR. No AC bonus from armor at all, in fact, Light penalizes you 1 point, Medium 2, and Heavy 4. Each armor gives it's regular AC bonus as DR. You have a decent class bonus to AC, depending on your level, so it's not unbalanced.

So, my question is, how would you alter your system to fit my game? I'd love yo use your ideas, and I could modify it myself, but I'd rather get the creator's imput before I butcher the poor thing.

If you aren't opposed to taking the time out to look at this, I'd be quite grateful.

I like the price guidelines, by the way. In my campaign, I'm using a silver based system. 100 Copper to 1 Silver, 100 Silver to 1 Gold. The guidelines you gave me don't require that much work to be useful. I figure if I bump the gold down to zero, and multiply it by 10, I'll get a decent price that will put armor beyond the price range of peasants, but within line for a skilled laborer or poorer merchant. Very nice, thought out well, IMHO.

Thanks for these ideas. I'm very glad you posted this.

- Kemrain the Brown-Noser

PS: No, I really do like this stuff, and I'm not sucking up. Very cool ideas. Nearly any attempt to realisti-fy D&D is welcome at my table.

- Kemrain the Realisti-fy-er.

 

[green slime]

Overall, I feel the weights are wrong. They all seem on the heavy side. You wouldn’t see knights in plate if it weighed as much as 100 lbs. You may be thinking of the 16th century tournament armours, but no armour worn on the battlefield weighed 100 lbs. Given that throughout history, the average grunt has carried around 40lbs of equipment with him. Any more and he tires too quickly on the battlefield.

The prices you have suggested seem OK, given a silver standard, rater than a gold one. I also liked the separate chart for “recommended retail price”.

Compared to the PHB, your arcane spell failures are lower. Any particular reason?

The AC boost seems VERY low, especially when you compare to the amount of movement you loose, and the Dexterity loss. Interesting to see that the Flex armours retain High Dex.

Now given that a game with this much revisions to the armour system, I’d expect a lot of revisions in other areas as well (weapon damage, spells, feats, monster AC’s/abilities and so on) Why? Because it implies a creative DM! ;-)

However, let us look at what happens in some selected scenarios, all other things considered equal.

FS = Fighter Seasong (using seasong’s armour rules)
FG = Fighter Green (using PHB armour)

They both have the same BAB, feats and are in all respects equal, except for their armour. Neither use any magic whatsoever. They don’t really fight, just take damage (or avoid taking damage)

A hobbit armed with daggers attacks them both while they are wearing “plate” (full plate).

FS has AC 14 plus no DEX.
FG has AC 18 plus up to 1 DEX.

FS gets hit 20-25% more often, but takes no damage, unless the hobbit has a Strength score, sneak attacks or should score a crit.
FG gets hit more seldomly, but takes more damage.

Is this good or bad? That is a matter of opinion.

IF the aggressor is a Giant armed with a Huge Great sword and using 3.5 E power attack, FS is going to get pasted, because the DR does not make up for the lack of AC:
(assume wimpy 24 Strength giant)
2d8+10 +PA –4 = 2d8+6+PA= 15+PA hp on average, * 120 % = 18 hp +1.2*PA
2d8+10 +PA = 19 +PA hp on average
And crits are more likely to get confirmed against FS.
This gets more noticeable as the damage dealt increases.

Now Seasong’s armour is less likely to be min-maxed than the core rules (as PHB is fairly easy). After some careful thought I see Mail or Segmented Plate (at low level) as being the dominant armour of adventurers:
For Mail, although the Damage reduction is relatively low, the Arcance Failure is clearly “best in class”. Secondly the high DEX means that it will be usefully for many types; Rogues until 10th level, Dex fighters, Rangers. My point being, there are not many ways to increase AC, so having a good combination of AC + Dex + DR means that Mail will be one of the top armours. (AC19 +DR 2/-
For Segmented Plate, this is obviously the best armour for low level tanks: 14 in Dex is possible through careful point buy, even for a tank. AC 16 DR 3/-. This will give way to Scale as players migrate up their Dex through item acquisition. AC 17 DR 3/-

Summary
I can’t see a 1 increase in DR to be worth a 2 drop in AC, given the large amount of large creatures that deal huge amounts of damage, especially later in the game. This is especially dangerous to the tanks given that Crits are much more likely to get confirmed, and they are the people most likely to suffer criticals as they are always at the forefront of the fight.
Given this, these changes lead to the extinction of the tank to delight of the Dex Fighter. Or the detriment of the party as a whole.

Lonesome thought
While Mail is probably a more practical armour to go adventuring in, I find it sad that it should become regarded as the epitome of armours on the battlefield.

 

[Xeriar]

Overall, I feel the weights are wrong. They all seem on the heavy side. You wouldn’t see knights in plate if it weighed as much as 100 lbs. You may be thinking of the 16th century tournament armours, but no armour worn on the battlefield weighed 100 lbs. Given that throughout history, the average grunt has carried around 40lbs of equipment with him. Any more and he tires too quickly on the battlefield.

Plate weights about 60-70 pounds, depending. Full plate is a little heavier, of course, but you're mounted wearing that. IMO WotC's armor weights are more spot on than their weapons.

I don't know where Seasong came up with 100 pounds, really. I don't know why he puts the max dex bonus at +0 either. There is a difference between an agile person in plate and an average person in plate, for sure.

Jousting armor IIRC is 80-90 pounds, and a knight could not get up in it unassisted.

A full suit of 4 in 1 chain weighs about 40 pounds. 5 for the coif, 25 for the haubark and 10 for the chausses, IIRC. Many soldiers neglected the chausses because of mobility and dysentry.

Splint mail runs metal splints vertically through these chain links, banded mail in bands around it. Maybe at 10 pounds at most. IMO neither are armors I'd care to wear, however.

I'm not sure about cloth/padded armor. It's 20 layers of silk or linen and is generally there to allow an arrow to be removed, or act as a gambesan for the armor over it.

Soft leather does not hold up well in combat and you can at least pound nails through it if you have to (ie, make it studded). Or if you're gonna go with soft leather, make it lamellar so you can replace damaged parts.

Hardened leather is certainly not what I would call semi-rigid - it's pretty damn stiff. It's not studded, rather, you attach metal plates to it and call it brigandine. The key here is not flexibility but that it's still quiet.

 

[green slime]

stated by Xeriar
Many soldiers neglected the chausses because of mobility and dysentry.