D&D 5E The Youngest Grognard?

[S'mon]

My son was born in 2007, but I raised him on Mentzer BECM DnD so he could be a Grognard by age 10. He dismissively refers to 3e as Caster Edition and often speaks of how 5e players these days have it so easy. Back in his day a failed save meant instant death!

 

[Nevvur]

I thought it meant "grumpy old ba***rd who talks about how much better things used to be back in the day." At least that's how I classify myself

Works for me! My first game ever was as a 7 year old in 1987 with Basic. Only one session, didn't get into DnD for reals until I was 13, and that was with 2e. I necessarily exclude myself from wearing the grognard badge based on that alone. I think [MENTION=4937]Celebrim[/MENTION] has probably offered, in so many words, the best detailed definition, but yours is handy in a pinch.

 

[jgsugden]

These definitions are fuzzy, but to me: In our environment, a grognard is pretty much anyone that says, "The current edition sucks. We're still playing (prior edition)."

If you're 65, you were playing Chainmail when it was first released, and have lots of opinions about why it was such a great game.... but you and your group have decided to play 5E.... I do not consider you a grognard. You evolved. However, if you were born in 2000, your group plays 4E exclusively and thinks 5E is horrible... you're a grognard in my books.

That being said - who cares? Labels, especially those with flexible definitions like this one - do more harm than good.

 

[Guest 6801328]

It takes years of practice to put on 50 pounds of unnecessary weight in just the right places, and to grow a good neckbeard.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Guest 6801328]

So, I think it helps to start with a baseline of what a "grognard" is. The original conception of the term is simply an experienced or veteran wargamer (from the French term) - coined by John Young.

Now, a little bit of a detour! So in terms of actual etymology, the French "grognard" comes from the French verb grogner (grunt, grumble), and was used to refer to veteran soldiers, specifically the Vielle Garde; one of the benefits of being in the Vielle Garde was the ability to speak freely! (To, um, grumble). So les Grognards were both the prestigious veterans and also, um, those who could grumble.

However, when the English heard about the term, it simply became a generic term for an old or veteran soldier. It lost the additional meaning of grumbling. So when it came back into use for wargaming via SSI and Young (and disseminated through Strategy & Tactics), it was simply talking about veteran wargamers.

Okay, so you have the term grognard referring to veteran wargamers (as opposed to new wargamers), a term that was used throughout the wargaming community, and quickly spread to the then-new computer wargaming community.

ENTER RPGs. So my first memory of the term grognard is when it was used to differentiate me, a young whippersnapper playing the then-new D&D, from the veteran wargamers who were mapping out artillery distances. So for me, at that time, a grognard was a WARGAMER, and a non-grognard was a person playing RPGs. So grognard was a term of pride ... used to put down people playing with dragons and elves and silly stuff.

Over time, the meaning has shifted IMO (from a prescriptivist POV). The biggest change is that people have read back in the etymology of grumbling - which was never how it originated. But the other big change is that grognards now refer to people who play (or talk about) older editions of RPGs, or at the very least experienced them during the time, so even if they are playing a new edition, they will still talk about ("grumble") about how it used to be "back in the day."

So this can be both a pejorative term (new players complaining about grognards) and a "reclaimed" term (a term of pride - proud to be a grognard). It is clear to me that the meaning has shifted.

As to the OP- there is no "youngest grognard." As each generation of grognards dies off*, a new generation will take its place. Forty years from now, someone will be talking about how they hate the new-fangled edition, and they should just go back to playing D&D in its pure form; you know, 5e.

I would say, however, that you can't be a grognard unless you have played the edition when it was out. You can enjoy it! You can discuss it! But part of the experience is playing it when it is around. A pseudo-gorgnard, maybe?

Also? 2e isn't for grognards. It's for poseurs. Just saying. Both because it's true .... and because I'm a grognard. Fight me.


*Except for me. My clean living, good looks, and refusal to play Paladins ensure that I will live forever.

Then there's les Montagrognards, which specifically refers to grumbling veterans from the mountainous highlands in central Viet Nam.

 

[Sacrosanct]

So, I think it helps to start with a baseline of what a "grognard" is. The original conception of the term is simply an experienced or veteran wargamer (from the French term) - coined by John Young.

Now, a little bit of a detour! So in terms of actual etymology, the French "grognard" comes from the French verb grogner (grunt, grumble), and was used to refer to veteran soldiers, specifically the Vielle Garde; one of the benefits of being in the Vielle Garde was the ability to speak freely! (To, um, grumble). So les Grognards were both the prestigious veterans and also, um, those who could grumble.

However, when the English heard about the term, it simply became a generic term for an old or veteran soldier. It lost the additional meaning of grumbling. So when it came back into use for wargaming via SSI and Young (and disseminated through Strategy & Tactics), it was simply talking about veteran wargamers.

Okay, so you have the term grognard referring to veteran wargamers (as opposed to new wargamers), a term that was used throughout the wargaming community, and quickly spread to the then-new computer wargaming community.

ENTER RPGs. So my first memory of the term grognard is when it was used to differentiate me, a young whippersnapper playing the then-new D&D, from the veteran wargamers who were mapping out artillery distances. So for me, at that time, a grognard was a WARGAMER, and a non-grognard was a person playing RPGs. So grognard was a term of pride ... used to put down people playing with dragons and elves and silly stuff.

Over time, the meaning has shifted IMO (from a prescriptivist POV). The biggest change is that people have read back in the etymology of grumbling - which was never how it originated. But the other big change is that grognards now refer to people who play (or talk about) older editions of RPGs, or at the very least experienced them during the time, so even if they are playing a new edition, they will still talk about ("grumble") about how it used to be "back in the day."

So this can be both a pejorative term (new players complaining about grognards) and a "reclaimed" term (a term of pride - proud to be a grognard). It is clear to me that the meaning has shifted.

As to the OP- there is no "youngest grognard." As each generation of grognards dies off*, a new generation will take its place. Forty years from now, someone will be talking about how they hate the new-fangled edition, and they should just go back to playing D&D in its pure form; you know, 5e.

I would say, however, that you can't be a grognard unless you have played the edition when it was out. You can enjoy it! You can discuss it! But part of the experience is playing it when it is around. A pseudo-gorgnard, maybe?

Also? 2e isn't for grognards. It's for poseurs. Just saying. Both because it's true .... and because I'm a grognard. Fight me.


*Except for me. My clean living, good looks, and refusal to play Paladins ensure that I will live forever.

I know it’s arbitrary, but I dint consider 2e to be grognard edition either. I guess if I were forced To create a line between grognards and not, it would be when Internet was a thing. Grognards like me are gamers from before there was an Internet.

 

[Sadras]

Also? 2e isn't for grognards. It's for poseurs. Just saying. Both because it's true .... and because I'm a grognard. Fight me.

Can't wait for your OD&D and 1e basterds to die out so this poseur can finally claim the title of Grognard.

 

[Zardnaar]

The reason I kind of said pre 3E as I was sure there would be someone with kids and they have played 1E or BECMI.

Any younger players who only played pre 3E independently of their parents not sure how they fit in.

It's also playing in the pre 3E era. I've played AD&D with modern players but they're not really Grognards. They'll play it but prefer 5E or 3E before that.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Can't wait for your OD&D and 1e basterds to die out so this poseur can finally claim the title of Grognard.

It does make me wonder if, when nobody is left alive who remembers OD&D and 1e, people will still try to invoke seniority as some kind of credential/authority in forum debates.

"I was there when 6e came out, so my opinion about florentine style is more valid than yours..."