Themes article up

[Aegeri]

At least they answered the question about how essentials classes like slayer/fighter would get benefits out of themes. They pretty much gutted the thing that made themes really great for me. I mean DS had 10 themes and not one of them is directly bad in any manner. They all allow any character class to expand their potential options. These themes are limited, I don't think are anywhere near as mechanically sound and lack the ability to grab a few unique powers feel that the originals had. Just a poor effort all around here IMO.

I am so sick of endless disappointment again and again.

 

[Truename]

I am so sick of endless disappointment again and again.

At some point you may wish to consider that it's you that's changed rather than the game. Time for a break? Your endless disappointment is bringing down a lot of threads.

 

[renau1g]

It's fairly easy to say that the game has changed since Essentials. I don't know if you can argue otherwise and "essentiallizing" things has really hurt a lot of their recent offerings in that they're shadows of their former selves.

IMO (and from what I've read a lot of others) it's lazy design. They could've either done two sets of themes, 1 for pre-e and 1 for regular e classes (the ones not getting e/u/d powers), which would've worked better and kept up the excellent offering they did with DS.

Maybe instead of attacking the poster you could try to see where he (and as I said before others) are coming from. IF it doesn't bother you or you don't see anything wrong, great, nothing anyone here can say can affect your enjoyment one bit.

If it's really bugging you there's a handy ignore button that lets you turn off their posts.

 

[Aegeri]

At some point you may wish to consider that it's you that's changed rather than the game. Time for a break? Your endless disappointment is bringing down a lot of threads.

I don't think I've changed, I was more than happy with DnD just a year ago. Given that the game has certainly changed more than me - actually this point is rather unarguable - I don't think that is the case at all.

Sorry if I "Down threads", maybe if Wizards actually released good things again I wouldn't be so unhappy! This was something I was genuinely absolutely and 100% perfectly excited for in every single way. What I've got I find very disappointing and isn't what I was expecting. If you want to argue that the game hasn't changed, may I suggest you pick up the Dark Sun campaign guide and look at the awesome, flavorful and mechanically awesome themes therein? Maybe you'll get an idea from that what I was expecting eagerly.

 

[Mummolus]

The thing that gets me is that this article is from the same author as much of the DSCS, including themes. Theoretically that would mean these should be even better, since they've had time to work out the glitches (of which there weren't many - DS on the whole remains a solid product).

Instead, we get themes obviously designed for essentials classes. Where's the promised support for pre-essentials?

It's just like Heroes of Shadow. Could have been one of the best products yet, if the new "builds" had actually been builds and not subclasses.

 

[Obryn]

At least they answered the question about how essentials classes like slayer/fighter would get benefits out of themes. They pretty much gutted the thing that made themes really great for me. I mean DS had 10 themes and not one of them is directly bad in any manner. They all allow any character class to expand their potential options. These themes are limited, I don't think are anywhere near as mechanically sound and lack the ability to grab a few unique powers feel that the originals had. Just a poor effort all around here IMO.

I am so sick of endless disappointment again and again.

I am still trying to figure out how well these balance with the Dark Sun themes.

BOTH:
* Encounter attack power that's basically a low-tier encounter power for most classes
* Swappable utilities
* Added flavor

DARK SUN:
* Swappable Encounter and Daily powers, which let you shore up dead levels and make a distinctive character, but barely affect power level

NEW:
* Added features, some of which are pretty strong, at no cost, which will make your character more distinctive, too.

I thought otherwise on first read, but on a re-read I think these might actually be stronger than Dark Sun themes. Which is weird. The fact that there are a lot more freebies is telling.

Anyway, I'm looking through again, and yeah. As I posted on the WotC forums, this has only 30% of the stuff I care about in a theme. OTOH, the features add 20% back in. Still, I'm left half as enthused as I was before the article was published...

-O

 

[Aegeri]

I agree entirely. What is worse is some of these themes are just begging for clarification (Alchemist, Order Adept, Wizard Apprentice), poorly thought out (Beastmaster) and one is just much better than the others (Order Adept gives a +2 bonus to will at level 5, which is a pretty substantial increase compared to the others). While I honestly can put DS themes on tiers, there isn't anything outright bad or that penalizes you for taking it.

I also wonder about confusing rules elements, like taking the Apprentice Wizard theme, then getting your free item and retraining it out after level 6. What happens to the free item? I mean such stupidity in an ongoing campaign is easy to stop, but it could lead to hilarious encounters/LFR hijinks.

Honestly, I don't know anymore and it's become clear that stuff pre-essentials is no longer important to wizards.

Edit: I actually agree with you Obryn. While their power level varies hugely within themselves, it's the fact they grant extra features over powers (that need your normal slot) that changes them considerably. Additionally, Order Adept can let a wide variety of classes get some of the best defensive utilities in the game (as they can take wizard utilities). I wouldn't think anyone would take some of these over a Dark Sun theme, but the Order Adept is incredible and I can see anyone wanting that. Getting wizard utilities like shield and wizards escape is just invaluable for so many classes (plus the +2 will defense). I'm just really underwhelmed at the current design in 4E and really unhappy they removed the power swap feature - instead replacing it with features. Yes, I know that works well with essentials classes - but I am not concerned about that at all. I wanted something that works with the vast majority of everything currently in 4E: Especially as themes would be substantial and REAL support for pre-E classes. Well, what a shame there.

It was very hard to say that Dark Sun themes were power creep, even if they added a free encounter for nothing because all the normal restrictions on powers were there beyond that. A theme that grants 3 extra benefits (with an encounter power) is considerably more powerful in many ways. Then again it depends on what those benefits actually are.

 

[Obryn]

Instead, we get themes obviously designed for essentials classes. Where's the promised support for pre-essentials?

This is one complaint I don't have.

Sure, they are designed so slimmed-down classes like the Slayer and Thief can get use out of them. Clearly. But in the final analysis, they are no more or less useful to them than they are to a PHB-style class.

I'm griping, too, but I don't think this is a fair gripe.

-O

 

[Aegeri]

I can see his point, but they are still just as useful to anyone as they would be an essentials class. It's mostly just that it's pretty clear the DS themes were gutted like this because of essentials (which is a pretty easy to prove point really). You know, with 15 themes I wouldn't have minded some in a style that was more compatible with essentials (who have limited options for power swapping in many cases). But I would have preferred the majority of them to be in the Dark Sun style. I am pretty sure the remaining themes will be like these and not like the Dark Sun themes.

 

[Obryn]

I also wonder about confusing rules elements, like taking the Apprentice Wizard theme, then getting your free item and retraining it out after level 6. What happens to the free item? I mean such stupidity in an ongoing campaign is easy to stop, but it could lead to hilarious encounters/LFR hijinks.

HAH!

I expect Order Initiate to get some nerfing. And I expect this to get some clarification!

I think it's funny how the Beastlord theme basically says, "Hey, DM, don't be a dick. Leave the poor puppy alone!"

Honestly, I don't know anymore and it's become clear that stuff pre-essentials is no longer important to wizards.

Given that this is all stuff they've had in the pipe for months, and were likely developing even before the Heroes Of... books dropped, I'm not sure about that. Mearls was pretty direct in Rule of Three recently. I was hoping Themes would be it but I guess not.

-O