Themes article up

[UngeheuerLich]

I beg to differ...

If you want themes to allow the encounter power swap, you could easily phrase it that way:

Level 3: You may take xx instead of the benefit usually gained at that level from your class (usually an encounter power)
This would be the close to the standard substitution level phrase pf 3.5...

 

[TwoSix]

I beg to differ...

If you want themes to allow the encounter power swap, you could easily phrase it that way:

Level 3: You may take xx instead of the benefit usually gained at that level from your class (usually an encounter power)
This would be the close to the standard substitution level phrase pf 3.5...

Exactly. Why they didn't do that is beyond me.

 

[Marshall]

I am still trying to figure out how well these balance with the Dark Sun themes.

BOTH:
* Encounter attack power that's basically a low-tier encounter power for most classes
* Swappable utilities
* Added flavor

DARK SUN:
* Swappable Encounter and Daily powers, which let you shore up dead levels and make a distinctive character, but barely affect power level

NEW:
* Added features, some of which are pretty strong, at no cost, which will make your character more distinctive, too.

I thought otherwise on first read, but on a re-read I think these might actually be stronger than Dark Sun themes. Which is weird. The fact that there are a lot more freebies is telling.

Anyway, I'm looking through again, and yeah. As I posted on the WotC forums, this has only 30% of the stuff I care about in a theme. OTOH, the features add 20% back in. Still, I'm left half as enthused as I was before the article was published...

-O

IOW, the DS versions were ways to make your character more distinctive and added a whole new arena of customization. Choosing a theme was another option in the same design space as Hybrid and Multiclassing. Breadth over depth.

These new ones are PURE power creep. New class abilities tacked on with no trade-offs made from other build decisions. Worse is the decision to leave them stand-alone. Once you choose your theme, your done. There is no mechanism to make the theme mean anything more to the PC than MOAR POWAH!

Epic Design Fail....again.

 

[Minifig]

Any word on when these will be added to the Character Builder?

 

[WalterKovacs]

Dark Sun themes were pre-essentials player crunch. It is certain as they were originally published - that I actually liked - are a dead concept and this is what themes will be in future. It would be awesome if my conclusion is wrong and the other themes DO have some DS like ones in them. I wouldn't mind at all themes that are more compatible with essentials classes and others that are more compatible with AEDU ones. As it is though, AEDU classes always seem to lose out on options when it comes to any decision about essentials compared to the original classes. Developing two different kinds would take more development time and I don't think that's likely to happen frankly - no matter how much I would love that to be the case.

Even with Dark Sun, they were already trying to juggle and work around the whole AEDU vs. psionic issue. And, they have sort of made a 'path' to give encounter powers to the characters with no leveled encounter powers via feats. So they could concievably put encounter attack powers back in to the concept of themes.

Personally though, utility powers are the easiest to design/balance probably, since you don't have to see "what would ANY class do with this power which uses their best attack stat ..." in each case. While essentials may have played a role, it may also be that, just like they only did racial utility powers, they felt that keeping it to your starting encounter power (which scales automatically), utilities and static class features it would be easier to design.

Also, it's only because of the Dark Sun themes that this problem is coming up. If these were the original themes, it wouldn't necessarily have occured to someone that a class feature being added over and above all the existing parts of a character is actually denying them something. And it's a bit weird to say the only way something can support pre-Essential classe is to inentionally be unusable or less usable by post Essential classes. Making themes and feats and paragon paths, etc, available for everyone is probably better han making them niche. And of the themes, the power-swap powers are an optional element to an optional element. IF someone takes the theme, they might take one of the powers, but only if it's better than, or significantly different than, something they get from their own class. With utilities, that's easy, as the range of possible utilities is vast, and 'generic' ones keep getting added (skills, racial, theme).

Or, it may simply be that it depends on the theme. A gladiator would learn attack techniques, while a wizard's apprentice or alchemist are more backgrounds that would reflect book learning and thust lean towards mostly towards utility ideas, etc.

 

[Neonchameleon]

IOW, the DS versions were ways to make your character more distinctive and added a whole new arena of customization. Choosing a theme was another option in the same design space as Hybrid and Multiclassing. Breadth over depth.

These new ones are PURE power creep. New class abilities tacked on with no trade-offs made from other build decisions. Worse is the decision to leave them stand-alone. Once you choose your theme, your done. There is no mechanism to make the theme mean anything more to the PC than MOAR POWAH!

Epic Design Fail....again.

The current ones are much more reasonable than the Dark Sun themes. Because there is a lot less of the law of unintended consequences in them. Just picking obvious Dark Sun issues, there's the Elemental Priest. I don't know if you've ever seen what a clog-the-battlefield controller can do in an urban setting, but it locks the battlefield down and makes the DM's life incredibly frustrating. Now giving the Elemental Priest theme to a shaman is just... obnoxious. But it's the law of unintended consequences that's the problem. Giving fighters power such as Fearsome Command (Area Burst 2 as their L3 encounter power) or Dazzling Flash (close burst 5). Spraying marks all over the place. Or let's look at the Wilder (crit on 18-20) combined with a seriously multiattacking ranger. Throw in an Avenger multiclass for good measure*.

Generally the DS themes are balanced. But some of them with some combinations of classes are ridiculously over the top.

* Turn 1: Psychic Surge, triggering your Quarry and Hobbling Strike. Move in. Trigger Avenger Multiclass. Action Point for Twin Strike. (2 attacks). World Serpent's Grasp to knock the enemy prone so they can't run away (and so you can get Headsman's Chop in). Interrupt: Disruptive strike. (3).
Turn 2: Twin Strike (5), Off Hand Strike (6), Ruffling Sting (7).

That's 7 attacks, rolling twice, and critting on an 18-20 - a crit chance of slightly more than 1/4 - or an average of 1.75 crits over the two turns. (Without the action point you only get five attacks, but you get the action point in more than half your encounters).

You sure you want to talk about Power Creep?

 

[Shroomy]

While I expected DS-style themes, I was pleasantly surprised by the new format. I think it has several advantages:

-They're 100% compatible with all the existing class structures
-They're almost purely additive - Personally, I'm not convinced that the encounter and daily power swaps were used that much by the majority of players
-Though the progression is locked in, the fact that they are features opens up a lot of design space and variety IMO. For example, we already have features that provide bonuses, items, powers, feats, pets, etc.

Technically, they are power creep, but I don't think they will have a major impact upon game balance and I'm looking forward to the release of even more themes. I would also like to see some paragon paths and feats to expand them (my one complaint).

One other thing, a lot of people have pointed to the Essentials classes as a reason why the encounter and daily powers were removed (at least for now), but while I think that they were definitely a factor, I see another, more philosophical reason for the switch. Its the same philosophy that gave us the vampire as a class. If WotC defines classes as what you do the majority of the time, then it makes sense, at least to me, that themes would not be more important than your class when it comes to your powers.

 

[TwoSix]

Generally the DS themes are balanced. But some of them with some combinations of classes are ridiculously over the top.

* Turn 1: Psychic Surge, triggering your Quarry and Hobbling Strike. Move in. Trigger Avenger Multiclass. Action Point for Twin Strike. (2 attacks). World Serpent's Grasp to knock the enemy prone so they can't run away (and so you can get Headsman's Chop in). Interrupt: Disruptive strike. (3).
Turn 2: Twin Strike (5), Off Hand Strike (6), Ruffling Sting (7).

That's 7 attacks, rolling twice, and critting on an 18-20 - a crit chance of slightly more than 1/4 - or an average of 1.75 crits over the two turns. (Without the action point you only get five attacks, but you get the action point in more than half your encounters).

You sure you want to talk about Power Creep?

Well, that does indicate some valid points, which are:

1) Nerf immediate action attacks.

2) Nerf Twin Strike already!!

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

One thing that I just noticed that these new themes are missing, is the addition of a power source and role. While relatively minor, there are several feats that do in fact key off your role and power source for prerequisites.

It's pretty easy to suss out what the power source should be with each of these, but I suppose with no attack powers there is very little to differentiate the role of utility powers.

 

[RangerWickett]

Is there an official ruling on how the DM is supposed to compensate for themes? Do we add an extra monster to the party? Add a level to the monsters? Kinda just eyeball it?

You shouldn't need to do anything. They don't add more power to PCs, just more options.