Themes article up

[Obryn]

I can see his point, but they are still just as useful to anyone as they would be an essentials class. It's mostly just that it's pretty clear the DS themes were gutted like this because of essentials (which is a pretty easy to prove point really).

I think that's obvious, and not necessary to prove. I think the only potential problem word is, "gutted." I'm not too inclined to disagree - I think we're both disappointed along the same axis, but I get the feeling I'm somewhat less disappointed than you are. I didn't get what I wanted, but there's some unexpected up-sides to what I got.

You know, with 15 themes I wouldn't have minded some in a style that was more compatible with essentials (who have limited options for power swapping in many cases). But I would have preferred the majority of them to be in the Dark Sun style. I am pretty sure the remaining themes will be like these and not like the Dark Sun themes.

I'm 95% sure you're right.

I suppose, thinking on it, it's probably fair for a generic theme to be more ... generic ... but I hope this doesn't close the door on future Dark Sun-style themes in upcoming products and Dragon articles.

My biggest concern is this. The fact that these are more obvious power-ups without cost means that themes may become less likely to be taken for thematic purposes and more likely to be taken for power purposes. In Dark Sun, my players have chosen themes they wanted to take mostly for flavor reasons. But now? Will we see a billion Order Adepts just like how everyone was from Windrise Ports or how everyone had an Auspicious Birth, just to poach +2 to Will?

-O

 

[Aegeri]

Dark Sun themes were pre-essentials player crunch. It is certain as they were originally published - that I actually liked - are a dead concept and this is what themes will be in future. It would be awesome if my conclusion is wrong and the other themes DO have some DS like ones in them. I wouldn't mind at all themes that are more compatible with essentials classes and others that are more compatible with AEDU ones. As it is though, AEDU classes always seem to lose out on options when it comes to any decision about essentials compared to the original classes. Developing two different kinds would take more development time and I don't think that's likely to happen frankly - no matter how much I would love that to be the case.

Edit: Poach +2 will and Wizard Utility powers. I mean Order Adept gives you an entire classes utility powers to choose from. That's amazing because wizards have amazing utilities. I can think of several off hand I would want: Shield, Illusory Wall (an attack power cleverly disguising itself as a utility) and Wizards Escape to name but some of the best choices. No other theme offers that much flexibility. You get 3 features, +2 will defense and an entire other classes utility powers to choose from.

 

[Obryn]

Edit: Poach +2 will and Wizard Utility powers. I mean Order Adept gives you an entire classes utility powers to choose from. That's amazing because wizards have amazing utilities. I can think of several off hand I would want: Shield, Illusory Wall (an attack power cleverly disguising itself as a utility) and Wizards Escape to name but some of the best choices. No other theme offers that much flexibility. You get 3 features, +2 will defense and an entire other classes utility powers to choose from.

Yeah, again, I expect Order Adept will get hit hard by the nerf bat.

-O

 

[garyh]

So, these themes were supposed to be in a book that was canceled (leading one to assume SOME development was done on them), and they don't have the power swap powers, feats, or paragon paths that - I thought, at least - seemed a major part of themes from Dark Sun.

And yet, they had to push the HotFK support material to next month to finish these stripped down themes...

Not what I was expecting... gotta say I'm disappointed.

 

[Neverfate]

Well, from a design stand point, here is a slightly different take. I believe these were intended to be the Paragon Paths of the Heroic tier. This is why they do not have their own PPs or why they can not power swap.

I believe the "Essential" aspect in all of that is the designers aim to make D&D foolproof. Also, from utilitarian standpoint, they are easier to produce. How many time have we seen a concept for a character pigeon holed into a Paragon Path? Or how many articles have we've gotten with a Paragon Path tacked on instead of an encounter power for every appropriate level?

How much feat support do we get for an actual Paragon Path? So I doubt we'll see much for themes.

I don't know how I feel about these articles just yet (as we have several more to see), but looking at this as a PP or ED for Heroic tier makes more sense in my head. Now if only they balanced the things (one Theme depending a 1HP Minion for EVERYTHING and another class getting access to a whole class's utilities? Um what?)

 

[Lenaianel]

To me DS themes always seems to be some sort of free multicass (If you swap all your powers to take the theme 's ones what's left of your class ?, how that class still define your character ?) that i dislike.

I prefer the new themes as they feel IMHO as a new layer more than a potential replacement for the class that shoud be the defining point of the character.

 

[blalien]

Is there an official ruling on how the DM is supposed to compensate for themes? Do we add an extra monster to the party? Add a level to the monsters? Kinda just eyeball it?

 

[Xris Robin]

Why is Order Adept not only so good, but so good only for non-wizards? If you have a spellbook, all you get is another 2nd level utility. If you don't have one, you get access to wizard utilities? Fluffwise, it's for spellcasters in the first place.

Also, the free item from Apprentice is kinda lame. None of them (except Order Adept) really scale, but a skill bonus is always working at least. A free item becomes outdated as soon as you go up a plus.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I really really don´t get the disappointment. Ok, i don´t know how the animal master is supposed to make the fighter more strikerish as stated:

For example, a fighter who chooses the animal master theme can gain some
useful striker powers.

It looks like something has been cut...

The other thing is that the animal master needs an encounter power he can use without his animal. Or he needs the same treatment as the beastmaster ranger...

On the other hand: the alchemist is exactly what I expected. A way to get alchemy in a useful way. Some other class will bring rituals back. For me this is much more useful than any power swap attack power could ever bring.

As to unbalanced features: Paragon paths all over again...

 

[TwoSix]

What bother me most is that a concept that should have theoretically expanded the game (classes with non-AEDU design), is now hindering the design space for everything else. Since some classes don't have a 1/3/5/7 encounter or daily slot, Wizards can't release anything that interacts with those slots anymore.

What was the point of saying we want to move past the original conformity, if the new system is even more confining?