The current ones are much more reasonable than the Dark Sun themes. Because there is a lot less of the law of unintended consequences in them.
I disagree with this entirely, because themes in DS are very easy to predict the effects of. I've been playing with them for over a year and I've not had to guess what effect they have on a character yet. You get one power and then have to powerswap - using the normal power allotment - for everything else. That one power just doesn't change the class. Now the power swaps can and that is part of the fun of themes.
Just picking obvious Dark Sun issues, there's the Elemental Priest. I don't know if you've ever seen what a clog-the-battlefield controller can do in an urban setting, but it locks the battlefield down and makes the DM's life incredibly frustrating.
Really? I've never found that and have had an elemental priest Druid spamming summons with instinctive actions. It's nowhere near the issue you seem to think it is. You get pretty much one more option, albeit a good one, but in terms of the "Litterbug" build you're still restricted to the same number of powers. It isn't like there aren't an abundance of great summon and similar powers across the Wizard and Druid (the two who can REALLY litterbug).
Now giving the Elemental Priest theme to a shaman is just... obnoxious.
It is? Wow, I've missed something there (because it really wasn't).
Giving fighters power such as Fearsome Command (Area Burst 2 as their L3 encounter power) or Dazzling Flash (close burst 5). Spraying marks all over the place.
That they cannot really enforce in either way. Of course marking itself is incredibly useful and marking in a close burst 5 is really good, but ultimately the monsters can still choose what they are going to do. The -2 penalty is great though, but it's not the end of the world and taking an area burst 2 for a melee combatant limits its use heavily (due to provoking OAs). But that's part of what makes themes so interesting as choices for your character!
Personally I cannot figure out what is imbalanced about any of your examples thus far, but the next one does have a pretty legitimate point. Just not the point you think you've made
Or let's look at the Wilder (crit on 18-20) combined with a seriously multiattacking ranger. Throw in an Avenger multiclass for good measure*.
You mean throw on a multiclass of something that doesn't exist by default in Dark Sun. You do realize Divine isn't in Dark Sun without the DM saying yes, making your entire example still broken, but not quite as bad as it would be with it. If the DM allows it then that is his fault!
Even so, all it shows me is that Rangers twin strike and amount of out of turn attacks are broken. I can give you numerous other examples of where rangers twin strike is absolutely broken
all the time, not just when you hit with a specific power first (which if you miss does break your entire chain of subsequent attacks). Half-Elven twin striking avengers every day all day on pretty much every attack they make (including charges). Actually twin strike + avenger anything is just terrible. Thankfully avenger isn't available in DS making this argument rather moot, but in the PoL setting it could be an issue. Quite frankly, I'd like something done about twin strike much more. The other thing is that this is 100% predictable. Rangers literally break every kind of effect like this, because they can attack multiple times.
In my ACTUAL Dark Sun game, I had both the Battlemind and the Monk using the Wilder theme. Both retrained it out because:
1) They couldn't hit with it on demand when required against something important. In fact they never once got the benefit of the extended crit range over 4 levels, so retrained it out for another theme (miserable rolling and in melee, provoking the OAs to use it wasn't worth it) - again when it was important.
2) The rare times they did hit with it were on pointless creatures (EG not things they REALLY wanted to hit). Even then they never got the crit anyway, because it wasn't very common to actually hit with it and then roll an 18+ on their next attack. But again Monks and Battleminds are not renowned for their multiple attack powers!
So really it's pretty easy to figure out that if you allow a divine class MC - in a setting that normally doesn't allow them - then throw on an 18-20 crit range, then allow rolling two dice (avenger multiclass) and have the ranger with its array of out of turn attacks and multiple attacks that it's going to be broken. But again, that's rangers for you and the result there is always 100% predictable.
AbdulAlhazred said:
I'm beginning to think people around here have gotten into some seriously bad habits when it comes to new material. Get some perspective, eh?
Wow both insulting and dismissive. Good job there on getting both into one sentence!
Perhaps there are quite a few people who just aren't happy that Wizards aren't publishing things they like anymore - yet just under a year ago they were? I am really not happy with things like themes being limited by the limited design of essentials classes. Especially when I could have seen room to have had both in the game with 15 themes. There could have been traditional DS themes. There could have been themes that were more essential friendly.
They could have pleased everyone, but chose not to do so. Again there is good logic for why they didn't do that, but it doesn't mean I am happy about it. Especially because this was the first thing in a long time I was absolutely 100% unequivocally excited about - only to be immensely disappointed yet again.
Edit: And for the record, I am not going to stop posting. If Wizards continue to release things that continue to disappoint me, I am going to continue pointing that out (and I don't care if you like it or not). All I want are monster books with epic monsters, a monster builder that worked and before these, themes for the general game. I am certainly going to let my players take these themes, if anyone is actually wondering as I've wanted to have my players in my Eberron game enjoy the same options regarding themes as my DS game.
Another point that annoys me is because they are entirely different mechanically, it means working with different rulesets between my two games. My DS game has entirely different themes than my regular one. I was hoping that I could offer a mix and match scenario, but I am not convinced that works very well with how different in structure they are. I also find it very annoying that there is such a wide variety in power structure in the new themes, that wasn't present in the DS ones. Some themes are arguably higher on the power curve than others, like Noble Adept in DS, but they aren't that huge in impact. Some of these themes have a gigantic impact and others are utterly useless. That isn't something I enjoy whatsoever.
But again, I am still going to allow my players in my Eberron and later PoL games to pick these themes. But I think I'll stick my DS players to only the Dark Sun themes. It's irritating having two rulesets for themes however.
