• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

Things I don't like about the 4E DMG - part 1 of 1000

Status
Not open for further replies.

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Okay, I'm going to go out on a limb here - if there's a full 1000 things you can point to that you don't like, just put it down and walk away. While critique is a valuable thing, 1000 points of it is overkill.

I mean, in the time you spend going over the full 1000 items, how much work could you do on a killer setting for a system you actually like?
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Rel

Liquid Awesome
Man this thread is choc FULL of moderators! Evildoers beware!

I think that the 4e DMG is one of the best official D&D books I've ever read. But that's a pretty crappy piece of DM advice in my opinion.

I say that if the players muck up your plans with their brilliant ideas then let those plans fail. Let them fail GLORIOUSLY. Let the players surprise and kill that BBEG while he's got his pants down. They earned it. It will make them think you're a fair DM. It will make them feel good about the attention they pay and creativity they invest in your game. And it will allow them to forgive you for the times that you throw them up against impossible odds.
 

Vorput

First Post
i say that if the players muck up your plans with their brilliant ideas then let those plans fail. Let them fail gloriously. Let the players surprise and kill that bbeg while he's got his pants down. They earned it. It will make them think you're a fair dm. It will make them feel good about the attention they pay and creativity they invest in your game. And it will allow them to forgive you for the times that you throw them up against impossible odds.

qft
 

Lizard

Explorer
Well, now I know where the infestation began.

I've seen a lot of threads on ENworld, and RPG.net, from 4e DMs complaining this power, or that magic item, or whatever, "ruined" their precious, perfectly planned encounter. Never mind plot railroading -- some 4e DMs are now aghast that those uppity PCs might not fight the *battle* the way they originally imagined. Damn them for showing imagination, initiative, and using the tools at their disposal! Don't they know that a "shared experience" means "Doing it the way I want"?

I just don't get this attitude at all. The DM presents a challenge to the players; the players seek to overcome it. Shutting off their powers just because you didn't expect them to do something is somewhere beyond just being a bad DM -- it's an attack on the fundamental social contract that underlies RPGs, and I can't believe an "official" book would advise new DMs to do it. This is as bad as "How to screw your player's Wishes" from 1e.

If you don't wany scrying, just make sure the ritual doesn't exist in your world. Pretty simple. But giving players a tool and then saying "Well, you can't use it when it would really be helpful" is stunningly wrong.
 

StreamOfTheSky

Adventurer
...Is there really gonna be nine-hundred ninety-nine more threads like this?

Are there really going to be 999 more posts that take a fairly well written and argued OP and try to derail the entire thread with endless streams of "IBTL!" (god, I wish people got banned for that), "edition wars! woot!", catcalls for the moderators (there are buttons and such if you want to report something), etc... until they heat up the blood of everyone else in the thread enough to succeed in their goal of locking the thread? Cause that's what annoys the crap out of me.
 

StreamOfTheSky

Adventurer
Okay, I'm going to go out on a limb here - if there's a full 1000 things you can point to that you don't like, just put it down and walk away. While critique is a valuable thing, 1000 points of it is overkill.

I mean, in the time you spend going over the full 1000 items, how much work could you do on a killer setting for a system you actually like?

I doubt the OP actually plans to make 1000 threads, and it's just his idea of a catchy name for a small series of threads. At least, I hope that's the case...
 

Alzrius

The EN World kitten
Are there really going to be 999 more posts that take a fairly well written and argued OP and try to derail the entire thread with endless streams of "IBTL!" (god, I wish people got banned for that), "edition wars! woot!", catcalls for the moderators (there are buttons and such if you want to report something), etc... until they heat up the blood of everyone else in the thread enough to succeed in their goal of locking the thread? Cause that's what annoys the crap out of me.

This.

The problem isn't the subject, nor the OP, it's the people posting antagonistic crap in response.
 

DandD

First Post
Are there really going to be 999 more posts that take a fairly well written and argued OP and try to derail the entire thread with endless streams of "IBTL!" (god, I wish people got banned for that), "edition wars! woot!", catcalls for the moderators (there are buttons and such if you want to report something), etc... until they heat up the blood of everyone else in the thread enough to succeed in their goal of locking the thread? Cause that's what annoys the crap out of me.
Are there really going to be 999 other posts complaining about posts that complained about the thread opening?

Will there be 999 posts complaining about this posting too?

Stay tuned for our christmas special on ENWorld. :D

A happy hanukha and other, rather less-known holyday to all.
 

chaotix42

First Post
If you don't wany scrying, just make sure the ritual doesn't exist in your world. Pretty simple. But giving players a tool and then saying "Well, you can't use it when it would really be helpful" is stunningly wrong.

"Well, you can't use it when it would really be disruptful" is what the excerpt seems to be saying.

I don't think the advice is so good though. If I'm trying to hide secrets from scrying PCs I'll block the scrying attempt with a Forbiddance spell or perhaps a more powerful ritual/artifact/gubbin of my own devising, or will generally have a good reason for why the PC's attempts failed. "Uhh, you just didn't describe him good" wouldn't fly with my PCs probably, so I'd be like "FOOL! It was only one of Mr. BBEG's MANY DISGUISES!"

It would be like trying to use Observe Creature on Tuxedo Mask.
 

catsclaw227

First Post
Well, now I know where the infestation began.

I've seen a lot of threads on ENworld, and RPG.net, from 4e DMs complaining this power, or that magic item, or whatever, "ruined" their precious, perfectly planned encounter. Never mind plot railroading -- some 4e DMs are now aghast that those uppity PCs might not fight the *battle* the way they originally imagined. Damn them for showing imagination, initiative, and using the tools at their disposal! Don't they know that a "shared experience" means "Doing it the way I want"?
This has been going on long before 4e came out. :) These types of complaints/posts are old hat. It's almost as prevalent as the posts that have a good message, but are too immersed in sarcasm or vitriol and hate to allow others to see any key or valid points in the thread.

I just don't get this attitude at all. The DM presents a challenge to the players; the players seek to overcome it. Shutting off their powers just because you didn't expect them to do something is somewhere beyond just being a bad DM -- it's an attack on the fundamental social contract that underlies RPGs, and I can't believe an "official" book would advise new DMs to do it. This is as bad as "How to screw your player's Wishes" from 1e.

While I agree that by RAW, the statement in the DMG was poorly worded, I am guessing that the spirit of the advice was to simply tell a DM that if their plot path with 15 hours of work will be hijacked by a ritual, it's OK to have it not work as expected.

A new DM could become very flustered by this and may well see the long, hard work on their campaign dashed, not by the ritual, but by DM inexperience with planning these things. It's OK to keep your train on the tracks, but learn from it and try to better foresee something like this in the future.
 

Status
Not open for further replies.
Remove ads

Top