things i like/dislike about dungeon delve - sort of a review

[Shroomy]

Sure. I think it's fair to say that DD is an add value product. It adds value to the Dungeon Tiles, and the Dungeon Tiles add value to it, and both of them together are stronger than either one without. But, the flip side is, if you're pointing out that the emperor has no clothes, the whole thing falls apart (meaning, maybe less metaphorically, if you buy DD without buying Dungeon Tiles, DD is less valuable...and, perhaps, if you buy Dungeon Tiles without DD, that Dungeon Tiles are less valuable, as the post about the Troll King indicates, though each undoubtedly has a value of their own, too).

It's a conditional positive (and a conditional negative). It's fair to point out that the use of Dungeon Tiles constrained DD, just as it's fair to point out that constraint showed by DD enhances the value of your dungeon tiles.

I was actually pointing out that the constraints of having to create encounter areas with Dungeon Tiles paid off creatively. Personally, the marketing synergy is less interesting to me, though I think that WoTC had a good idea with the Dungeon Delve/Dungeon Tiles synergy.

 

[SlyFlourish]

Its funny that you label the use of Dungeon Tiles as a constraint but from your comment of "crappy Dungeon Tiles" I see it isn't so much a complaint against the book as it is the tiles.

I'm actually surprised that this is the first product of Wizards that directly uses the tiles. After all, they are a single company that produces both products. As an owner of the tile sets, it always bothered me that their own adventures didn't use them at least SOME of the time. After all, if Wizards own designers can't use them in their published adventures, why would we?

I'm a huge fan of the Dungeon Delve for the reasons you mention. It is a toolbox for DMs seeking quick one-night adventures to either throw into their campaign as a side trek or to run as a single night adventure. I plan on using the hell out of it.

I'm really hoping we see this as a regular product line. I think there's a lot of room for it and I'd also like to see more delves released as part of Dungeon Magazine.

For those who prefer more polished full-length adventures, there are tons and tons of them between Wizards adventures and those published in Dungeon every month.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I was actually pointing out that the constraints of having to create encounter areas with Dungeon Tiles paid off creatively.

If you don't use/want Dungeon Tiles, then using them creatively is ultimately meaningless, right? It's an add-value; it's great if you have both, but without half of the equation, it's not much on its own.

 

[Shroomy]

If you don't use/want Dungeon Tiles, then using them creatively is ultimately meaningless, right? It's an add-value; it's great if you have both, but without half of the equation, it's not much on its own.

You're missing my point; I'm a big believer in the idea that constraints can foster creativity. In this case, the designers were "forced" to use a finite amount of tiles from four DT sets to represent the room layouts, terrain, and hazards in each delve. IMO, because of the "sameness" of the visual representations (the same tiles are used repeatedly), the designers put a lot of work into weaving really interesting elements into each encounter. While I own the DT sets in question, the fact that I can create the exact same layouts myself is not as important to me as all of these interesting elements. They're enjoyable to read, I think they'll be interesting in play, and its a great repository of ideas that I can use for my own campaign and adventures.

 

[I'm A Banana]

You're missing my point; I'm a big believer in the idea that constraints can foster creativity. In this case, the designers were "forced" to use a finite amount of tiles from four DT sets to represent the room layouts, terrain, and hazards in each delve. IMO, because of the "sameness" of the visual representations (the same tiles are used repeatedly), the designers put a lot of work into weaving really interesting elements into each encounter.

I guess this is basically speculating on designer motives, really. Could the designers have made MORE creative things without the link to dungeon tiles? Or were they only able to be creative because of Dungeon Tiles?

If you wanted creative combats that used a greater diversity of layouts, you won't get it. The trade-off might be worth it if you owned the DTs. If you don't, the trade-off might not be worth it.

Either way, no one was harping on WotC's evil corporate greed for tying the two together, just pointing out that tying the two together does limit the layouts, which is true, whether or not those layouts lead to greater designer creativity in encounter design than would otherwise be possible.

 

[mearls]

We don't usually use dungeon tiles in our adventures because each set gets one print run.

If we used a set for Keep on the Shadowfell and you bought the adventure a year or two after it came out, there's a good chance that the tiles it uses are sold out.

EDIT: FWIW, I use the tiles all the time in my campaign. I mapped out an entire ghoul warren, and the weird temple at its center, using tiles. I think using the tiles is like working within the structure of a particular type of poem. There are limits, but they also push you to do stuff that you might have otherwise never considered.

For instance, Fane of the Forgotten Gods has a few niche tiles. I used them this week as part of a trap where a fountain blasted the wizard and the warlock with jets of water that knocked them back into the niches, triggering a portcullis that dropped and trapped the PCs inside.

 

[Badwe]

I've used dungeon tiles. I've recreated other people's maps using a battlemat and a dry erase. Dungeon Tiles just plain LOOK better and are COMPELLING, compared to lines as i end up taking a wide swath at someone's meticulously curlicued cave that is so much more creative than a set of tiles with the same curlicues already printed on them.

It's a false premise, the tiles do NOT restrict creativity any more than a battlemat does. If you are some kind of encounter design GENIOUS who is somehow leveraging the granularity of being able to draw every individual corner and pillar to create unique LOS and cover situations... hats off to you because if you had my party 90% of those maps would be lost on them anyway. If I use tiles, the vibrance immediately changes the energy of the table, and DD arranges them in clever ways that REALLY push that quality of them.

A criticism is a criticism, like the 8th level elite vs 3rd level PCs. Sometimes it just seems like people have a bone to pick with WotC and the way they do their business. I'm just going to come out and say that I think the DD would have been a WORSE product if they didn't use dungeon tiles, so we can just agree to disagree and move on.

 

[Festivus]

Well, that's the marketing constraint.

The idea isn't that WotC is greedy corporate cross-marketing dragon trolls.

The idea is that Dungeon Delve could have been a better book if it didn't tie itself to this limitation.

I mean, bully for you having all those things, but it's sad that the book couldn't have been more awesome.

I do kind of get why they did it independent of the cross-marketing angle. If the idea is to have ready-made adventures that are ready to go right away, using dungeon tiles means that you already have a to-scale map, which would otherwise be a problem.

At least they used recent tile sets. I went looking for DT6 and DT7 at FLGS, who told me he was sold out and couldn't get anymore. Thankfully Amazon had them. Yes, buying this book spurred me to buy the sets, I look at this as something I can play with the kids and family who isn't into a lengthly D&D session. Plop down some minis and the tiles and play one of the segments for like an hour. Easy.

So yeah, it's a cross product selling. But you know, you can still run the adventures with a piece of graph paper and a pencil if you really wanted to.

 

[MadLordOfMilk]

- I don't think this is a trend but the first encounter I looked at - level 3 - is a guaranteed TPK. I don't mean it might happen, I mean it is 100% without DM intervention. You just can't fight an n+5 elite with more HP than the entire party combined and 3 other >n enemies at the end of a third encounter and live. (I've seen what an n+5 elite can do by itself. When you have to roll above 15 to hit something with 5x your HP, it's not good.) I haven't noticed any other encounters this lop-sided, but this one stood out. Others seemed "hard" or "very hard," with a few "slightly hard" ones thrown in, too.

Actually... I've done EXACTLY that before. The party lived, but narrowly. I think there was one death, but the rest survived. We had 6 or 7 people that day also, but I buffed the monsters (hell, I gave the elite threatening reach and they fought in an incredibly small room). It can be done. Actually, now that I think about it, the party was all lv2 characters and the elite was lv8 with three lv4s with it.

 

[I'm A Banana]

FWIW, I use the tiles all the time in my campaign. I mapped out an entire ghoul warren, and the weird temple at its center, using tiles. I think using the tiles is like working within the structure of a particular type of poem. There are limits, but they also push you to do stuff that you might have otherwise never considered.

For instance, Fane of the Forgotten Gods has a few niche tiles. I used them this week as part of a trap where a fountain blasted the wizard and the warlock with jets of water that knocked them back into the niches, triggering a portcullis that dropped and trapped the PCs inside.

Sounds cool, but totally backwards from the way I plan encounters (as much as I ever plan encounters), which starts with the question: "What would be MOST AWESOME?" not with "What D&D toys do I have?"

I'm not the target for DD or DTs, since I (a) hate minis combat, (b) don't have a lot of disposable D&D income, and (c) am a pretty casual player, but that's OK. I don't begrudge them (or even their linking together). I'm glad they're awesome together. I think I would have an issue if there was more than one DD style book per year or somesuch, but a one-off doesn't phase me any more than 4e's constant "wink-wink-nudge-nudge-buy-buy" prodding already does.

I'm more inclined to have combat with Pazuzu on the back of a soaring Roc through the gigantic subterranean caverns of Nyll than I am to have it be eight goblins and six PC's in a 30x30 room with a few niches and decorations. This appeals to the latter, and that's just fine. Saves me $30.