Third Edition Culture- Is is sustainable?

[Psion]

I mean, jumping Jesus on a pogo stick - can it get *more* complicated?

It certainly could. You could pretend that the GM doesn't have the dispensation to make a call.

I'm seeing a repeated trend among the apparent attitude displayed amongst the disgruntled here: they seem to be concerned what the rules say, but are disgruntled when they encounter problems with the rules.

Perhaps why I don't feel a deep concern about this is that when the rules aren't working for me is when I start making shortcuts and common sense. When the rules are easier and more consistent to use that trying to assemble some messy ad hoc thingy, I use the rule.

The rules are here to serve you. When they are no longer serving you, kick them to the curb. But not before.

I mean really: does what the sage has to say about teleporting into anti life shells really any more "right" than what the DM has to say? Make a call and move on.

 

[Sebastian Francis]

I'm still shopping around for the system that I think closely matches my ideal. I've gotten HARP, and like what I've read thus far. I intend to get Grim Tales, and my DM (drife on here) informed me that the next campaign he's starting is going to be Harn, so I'll get exposed to that, and I'm excited.

Have you considered an earlier version of (A)D&D? Right now I'm primarily running 3.0, but due to all the stuff we're discussing in these threads, I'm thinking of running an AD&D 2e game next. In spite of how much some folks dislike 2e, I find it quite a simple system. No feats, no prestige classes, no tactical minatures-based combat, fewer spells, fewer classes, simpler class abilities, far fewer numbers, stats, and rules to keep track of. I know 2e isn't for everyone--some people find the somewhat arbitrary mechanics annoying (i.e. Characters have a special stat just for breaking down doors ) but I love it.

Or there's Rules Cyclopedia D&D, even better. Due to the referendum on this forum, it's the next rules set for our group's major campaign.

Other than AD&D 1e, which I've always found rather dense and arcane, I'd have to say that previous versions of D&D/AD&D are *much* rules-liter and *far* easier to DM, especially at high levels (which aren't usually as high anyway ).

It's true that *any* system can become tactical and munchkin heavy. But some (cough 3e cough) are more likely to go that route than others).

 

[Desdichado]

Well, perhaps some clarification is in order here. Are the complaints about complexity of 3e related to high level only, or are those complaints always your opinion of 3e? I think high level is a pain and a half to work with, and frankly, I have little interest in it. If that's what you mean, I'm right behind you, but if you think 3rd level 3e is too complicated, I'd have to come down on the side of "whatchoo talkin' 'bout, Willis?"

 

[Arnwyn]

I think the complaints about the complexity leading to prep time are greatly exaggerated relative to d20.

Or not.

 

[Sebastian Francis]

Well, perhaps some clarification is in order here. Are the complaints about complexity of 3e related to high level only, or are those complaints always your opinion of 3e? I think high level is a pain and a half to work with, and frankly, I have little interest in it. If that's what you mean, I'm right behind you, but if you think 3rd level 3e is too complicated, I'd have to come down on the side of "whatchoo talkin' 'bout, Willis?"

Excellent question. Speaking for myself, I'd say my primary gripe with 3e is the complexity at higher levels. But I'm also troubled by the sheer amount of crunch in the system as a whole, as others have mentioned.

But give me an adventure with 2nd level PCs in 3rd edition, and I'm in my element as a DM. Problem is, they don't *stay* 2nd level. Unless you, as a DM, give out XP too slowly to keep them down. Then the players rise up and say, "Why such slow advancement?" Then you say, "I don't want high levels in my game." Then they leave...

...which is the problem that is rarely addressed by the "You're the DM! Be tough!" crowd.

 

[Turjan]

Well, perhaps some clarification is in order here. Are the complaints about complexity of 3e related to high level only, or are those complaints always your opinion of 3e? I think high level is a pain and a half to work with, and frankly, I have little interest in it. If that's what you mean, I'm right behind you, but if you think 3rd level 3e is too complicated, I'd have to come down on the side of "whatchoo talkin' 'bout, Willis?"

Both. The problem with lower levels may go away as soon as I'll be a bit more accustomed to the system (I'm still a beginner, and so are the players). Preparation takes ages. I suppose this gets better with time when you just can go to the shelf and look through your "old" NPC's.

As far as high level game is concerned, I simply don't like it. It's not only the complexity, but the whole setup of jumping through worlds in order to find your challenges. (Btw, this makes all settings that I'm aware of highly unbelievable. How can a "normal world" exist next to such powers?). Okay, this is just a matter of preference. But just a look at stat blocks of high level (N)PC's makes me cringe.

 

[Sebastian Francis]

I'd have to come down on the side of "whatchoo talkin' 'bout, Willis?"

By the way Josh, this "Different Strokes" reference brought a smile to my face. I recently told a group of my students, "If you want to get me something for my birthday, get a time machine and send me back to 1976."

I know Different Strokes was 80's. I want to *re-start* my life in '76.

 

[Desdichado]

By the way Josh, this "Different Strokes" reference brought a smile to my face.

Glad to be of service!

 

[Henry]

I know Different Strokes was 80's. I want to *re-start* my life in '76.

Sun-day, Mon-day, Hap-py Days, Tues-day, Wednes-day, Hap-py Days...

 

[GlassJaw]

I find the "it's not rocket science" posts very condescending. Of course it's not but it implies that the person isn't capable of adding. Voicing your opinion or an alternate view is fine, I just don't like the demeaning replies.

The math in 3ed is not complicated by any means. The main "problem", especially on the DM's part, is there is a lot to remember. And it only increases as the levels get higher. It's not so much not being able to add, it's forgetting what stacks with what and who has what spell working. Sure the players can write stuff down but what if the DM has a couple of spellcasters, some demons, and undead and orcs minions all at once?

High-level play in 3.x requires the DM to have a very strong grasp of the rules and be able to spout mechanics off the top of his. If you have a skittish DM or someone who has to consult the book about every spell, feat, or combat maneuver, you're going to be in for a long night.

In the various campaigns I've been in, almost once per session the DM or a players says "Damn! I forgot this guy's special ability" or "oops, I added the bonuses from Righteous Might, Divine Power, Holy Aura, and Greater Magic Weapon together wrong, sorry about that". These are accountants, teachers, and programmers (I'm an engineer). Are we capable of doing the math? I would think so. Is it still a pain in butt? You bet.