Third Edition Culture- Is is sustainable?

[Akrasia]

... When you say you shouldn't have to, does that mean that you think the system should be different somehow? If so, consider what is going on when you select an easier system: you are simply going with a system for which "winging it" is codified or accepted as part of the rules. It certainly doesn't give those rules the sort of consistency or internal logic that those who seek "meatier" rules strive for. ...

Sorry, but the last sentence in this paragraph this strikes me as absolute nonsense.

I fail completely to see why an "easier system" cannot be just as consistent, or have just as much internal logical, as a "meatier" system.

Indeed, if it is adequately consistent in its parsimonious rules, a simpler system is less likely to suffer from breakdowns of consistency and/or internal logic in application than are more complex systems.

A simpler system's rules are simply more general -- they apply across a wider class of cases. Consequently, 'winging it' in a consistent manner is easier, because the rules in question just cover more situations that arise during the game. And since it is easier for the DM to keep these parsimonious rules in his/her head while running the game, he/she is more likely to apply them ('wing it') when in an appropriate manner.

Now a simpler system's rules will often lack the 'realism' or 'representational accuracy' that some more complex rules systems purport to have (though 3E has never really claimed this to be one of its virtues). That is inevitable. But that only matters if you care about 'representational accuracy' in a fantasy RPG.

 

[Turjan]

Don't hang up your dice bag completely. There are a number of other games which you may find as fun as you did D&D for those 17 years. GURPS, HARP, Rolemaster, Hero, Unisystem, Tri-Stat, just to name a few.

I think it's a good idea to look at other game systems once in a while. Often this results even in the effect that you learn to love D&D again ! Anyway, I still like to play D&D 3.x, I just don't like to DM it anymore. Unfortunately, I'm the only one in the group who could bring himself to do it up to now.

Btw, you forgot HeroQuest and Talislanta as real rules-lite games in your list .

 

[Akrasia]

... So there is an argument to be made that systems that make it easier to wing it and still approximate the correct rules are in fact more likely to be fun to play.

I agree completely.

I just find it much easier to wing it with systems that are somewhat more 'rules lite' than 3E (especially with respect to combat, but also feats, special abilities, and spells ).

 

[Akrasia]

And let me make (another) plug for Rules Cyclopedia D&D, which is, by many peoples' reckoning, the best version of D&D ever. Even 3/3.5 die-hards tend to respect RC D&D.

Welcome to the Dark Side, Sebastian Francis!

While we're in the business of plugging things, I found C&C to be, to some extent, what the RC would be, had it been revised to use the much vaunted single "d20 mechanic". But RC has that certain perfume of nostalgia attached to it. I love both these systems. If I had a group willling to play either system, I would probably not DM at all (Buridan's Ass, in the "donkey" sense, and all that... )

 

[GlassJaw]

You know, every time I turn around in some post or other your getting offended by something that is just not there. Get a thicker skin or just read the posts about children's books

Thanks for gracing us with your insightful comments. ENWorld is a better place for it.

 

[Patman21967]

I personally have a few problems, though not many. First off, I GM a game, and play in one. GMing is time consuming, in that, to present a "challenge" to PC's, you really either have to fudge NPC's, or really take the time to use thier abilities at their best. That slows the pace of the game dramatically. My main gripe though, is that the whole combat system seems, to me, to be designed to SELL MINIATURES. The whole AoO and squares thing. I hate it. I like AoO's but you really have to use a battlemat to represent it well. And I hate that fact that you have PC's moving around and taking time to advise each other of the correct route to take to avoid said AoO. I think it really emphasizes the "wargaming" aspect of it. It seems too analytical to me.

I love all the options the game system presents, but it really is a slow moving system.

 

[Piratecat]

Gentlemen and ladies, further bickering will get this thread thoroughly and definitively closed. You folks know the rules; discuss your points, but please don't slip into name-calling, subtle jabs or personal insults. Not that you glue-sniffing monkey-suckers could figure out how to do that, anyways. insert rolleyes icon here: )

Thanks.

 

[Akrasia]

Gentlemen and ladies, further bickering will get this thread thoroughly and definitively closed. You folks know the rules; discuss your points, but please don't slip into name-calling, subtle jabs or personal insults. Not that you glue-sniffing monkey-suckers could figure out how to do that, anyways. insert rolleyes icon here: )

Thanks.

While some of the exchanges have been "spirited", I don't think that people have been engaging in excessive 'petty bickering' (aside from a few indiscretions, here and there). I have found this thread to be very useful -- both in sharpening my own criticisms of certain aspects of 3E, as well as thinking about ways to make the system work better in my future games.

 

[knifespeaks]

Well, here's the knife's take on 3.5:

1. Yeah, it ain't perfect;
2. Yeah, I am critical of some things;
3. Yeah, at this time, I would play earlier editions if I could;
4. Yeah, it can be complex;
5. Yeah, I like some things;
6. Yeah, my group enjoys it;
7. Yeah, DM'ing it can be painful;
8. But, I am gonna stick with it, learn it, use it, master it...and THEN decide, when my players are all level 20, whether I really prefer earlier editions.

For me, it's the people I play with who really make the game - all the work I do, and posts I make here which draw heavy fire are all worth it when they look across the screens with a far away look in their eye and you JUST KNOW that it's going to be a good night's play

 

[Spatula]

How about a cleric of deception and thievery? What if I wanted to sacrifice my turning undead ability for additional skill points?

What if I wanted to make a mendicant (traveling, begging priest). Can I trade my armor proficiency off for something more useful? I'm a pacifist. Can I replace my BAB with something more appropriate to my character concept?

Sure. See the section in the DMG about customizing classes to get you started. What's printed in the PHB isn't written in stone.