Third Edition Culture- Is is sustainable?

[Belen]

I guess I will post ina new thread in order not to further sidetrack the 1e DMD thread. I was wondering if others were starting to think about dropping off the DnD radar? There seems to be a lot of threads latey about the benefits of older editions and there strengths. And I see a lot more people seem to be dropping off the 3e DnD bandwagon. I do have some problems with 3e, (detailed below) yet I have no trouble with d20. In fact, I fully intend to stay with d20. Anyone else feel the same?

The culture of 3e implies that the "game serves the rules." This is inherent in just about everything that Wizards produces, and the DMG is not strong enough to teach beginners that the "rules should serve the game." (Reproduced with permission of Psion. )

Do not get me wrong, I enjoy 3e. It is a great game to play. Yet it sucks to run unless you have a handy computer and a program like E-tools or HeroForge to help make stating NPCs easier. The rules are so intensive for a GM, that excessive work is required to challenge players, who are very proficient in crafting effective characters. A simple NPC build gets wiped every time! This leads to less time preparing for other areas of the game....like plot etc.

Conditional feats are truly broken in the sense that they break the game and slow the pace to a crawl. For example, the feat "Dodge." It requires a inordinate amount of work for such a simple feat. The player has to remember who to apply it too, the GM has to remember which mook it applies too and it usually just gets lost in the shuffle. That is just ONE feat to track.

Spells that add temporary modifiers also affect the game. Suddenly everyone has to remember that they get that +1 to hit etc.

Also, advanced combat can also be a mess: grapple, bull rush etc. They all use a slightly different mechanic. I have yet to be in a group that does not spend time looking at the advanced options just about every time they are used. It does not help that AoOs are involved, unless you have the right conditional feat. It really defeats the purpose here.

In theory, these things are fine, but that theory relies on every player being a master of the game who makes an extreme effort to keep track of all the optional mods etc.

In practice, it is a nightmare. It slows down combat and drains the essence out of the game.

So yes, the underlying d20 system is simple, but the current game is terribly complex.

To put it in better terms, I GM'd 2e for 3 years and never burned out once. I GM'd 3e for 4 years and burned out 3 times.

Yet I still GM 3e. I just love DnD too much to quit, even if 3e is not really DnD. However, for the very first time, I am considering trying a new system. This will probably be Castles and Crusades for a more DnD-like game, while I will go with Blue Rose for the ladies.

Just my thoughts.

I know a lot of people truly enjoy 3e. It fits the current generation of computer gamers and allows a lot of customization and cool abilities. I just think it lacks the soul and character that drew me to it in days gone by. Feel free to tell me I am wrong.

 

[fredramsey]

Any game system, no matter what the mechanics, no matter what the "fluff vs. crunch", no matter what settings are available, no matter the simplicity, no matter the complexity, needs 2 things to be successful:

1. A good GM who is willing to put the necessary work into making the game fun and flow well.

2. Good players, ones who are there to play and have fun, not to be argumentative or try to turn the game into Diablo.

Without these two things, the system used doesn't amount to a hill of beans, period.

So search high and low, pick a system you like, and go with it. Just don't expect the system to make up for your own flaws as a GM or player.

 

[Mystery Man]

3E is just fine.

It's the culture of instant gratification and no attention span that's the problem.

 

[GlassJaw]

the underlying d20 system is simple, but the current game is terribly complex

This line pretty much sums it up for me.

3.x has become too bloated. I would like to see it become a more generic and streamlined system. Once again, I am going to herald Grim Tales (and no, they don't pay me). I think GT is ahead of its time, and not just because it's low-magic. It has less classes than 3.x but allows for an infinite number of concepts and combinations and does it without the need for prestige classes! It's the quintessential alternate PHB IMO.

For those of you not familiar with GT, it similar to d20 Modern in that it has 6 classes, one based on each ability score but they are leveled out to 20 (rather than 10 in d20 Modern). It then has talent trees for all the class abilities. There are also no multiclass restrictions.

GT also has an amazing CR/EL system and the ultimate creature creation ruleset.

While I love the fact that I only need one book for all my playing and DM'ing needs, I honestly don't see WotC go this route. There is just too much money in the crunch for them. They need a system that allows for expansion. As long as 3.x stuff keeps selling, WotC has no reason to reinvent the wheel.

 

[Belen]

For those of you not familiar with GT, it similar to d20 Modern in that it has 6 classes, one based on each ability score but they are leveled out to 20 (rather than 10 in d20 Modern). It then has talent trees for all the class abilities. There are also no multiclass restrictions.

I own Grim Tales. I enjoy it. It is a good toolkit, but I would not want to see a game go in that direction. GT is a toolkit. It tends to lack character in that you do not get a sense of the game when reading it. In that sense, it is further from what I want.

However, I agree that is is a good book and very advanced, but not as simple as I would like. It has been a great help when running my Fallen Earth game at the game days!

 

[Desdichado]

It's the culture of instant gratification and no attention span that's the problem.

Right, and 3e, assuming it buys into this, is a symptom, not a cause of this problem.

As to the original thread question, I agree, but I'm not sure for the same reasons. I dislike a number of the D&Disms, but I disliked them just as much in 1e as I do now. Going back to an older edition doesn't help me in that case, it makes it worse, because then the rules are no longer consistent. While I agree that the rules add layer after layer of complexity, some of them are not replicated in other d20 incarnations, such as d20 Modern, Star Wars, Wheel of Time, Call of Cthulhu, etc.

I also do not have some of the specific problems you note; I rarely spend much time building NPCs, for example, and I think 3e facilitates "winging it" a great deal by virtue of the fact that the rules are consistent.

But it's the specific flavor of D&D 3e that bugs me, and only partly because of the complexity. I really like something like Grim Tales, or the Conan RPG, for instance, because I can play a game that uses rules very similar to D&D, but which doesn't feel like D&D.

Anyhoo, I'm pretty sure my take on it, while not unique, is certainly unusual and marginal from a statistical point of view, though.

 

[Psion]

In the real world (or as mearls calls it, "meatspace"), IME all these arguments about complexity and things they moan about don't crop up. My group -- and I imagine, most groups -- are just a bunch of people with some character concepts who get together a few times a month to play a game. Most people don't have the time or energy to express the sort of disgruntlement you allude to, nor advocate the system.

 

[fredramsey]

Amen.

In the real world (IME), all these arguments about complexity and things the moan about don't crop up. My group -- and I imagine most groups -- are just a bunch of people with some character concepts who get together a few months to play a game. Most people don't have the time or energy to express the sort of disgruntlement you allude to.

 

[Mystery Man]

Right, and 3e, assuming it buys into this, is a symptom, not a cause of this problem.

Disagree. I've run into the problem in 2E as well. It's the culture not the gaming system, you can't blame a set of rules on that.

 

[Desdichado]

Disagree. I've run into the problem in 2E as well. It's the culture not the gaming system, you can't blame a set of rules on that.

Errr... that's what I was trying to say too. Sorry, I must not have been very clear.